Is Kapil Dev an ATG test cricketer?

[kyear2]

I think for batting ahead of keepers, it really depends on who the keeper is. Like for eg Sangakkara batted at 3 even while keeping. For a less severe example, Jadeja almost always bats behind Pant, but so does another batsman like Sarfraz in general, since Pant bats at 5. On the otherhand, Lindwall batted plenty ahead of Tallon. Like literal bowlers batted ahead of someone like Strudwick.

Pretty sure he meat bat in the top 6 or bowl at least 2nd change.

 

[kyear2]

Knott is ATG

Most definitely.

 

[Victor Ian]

Pretty sure he meat bat in the top 6 or bowl at least 2nd change.

Yeah this, but top 7. Some guys pushed the keeper to 8. Other at 7 if keeper bats higher up.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Yeah this, but top 7. Some guys pushed the keeper to 8. Other at 7 if keeper bats higher up.

Yeah that works. I just commented something basic

 

[capt_Luffy]

But how is Healy's 27 poor, but Kapil's 30 sufficient enough to push his underwhelming bowling performance to ATG all round status.

Also keeper is a position where the all rounder is an absolute must, like a 5th bowler.

Having a inferior bowler usurp his superior because he can bat a bit is not a requirement nor explicitly beneficial.

Because you don't expect your keeper to average like 10 with the bat. 27 is the bare minimum there. I am genuinely having struggle with your inability to grasp that.....

 

[Bolo.]

A team with a bowler who averages 35 and a keeper who averages 15 is going to score the same amount of runs as a team who goes keeper 35 and bowler 15.

Keeping and bowling are both essential. The reasons people often consider it essential to staple batting onto a keeper but not a bowler are:

1) Because there is an expectation keepers can do it since so many can. Which is basically a roundabout way of saying batting from a bowler is rarer and more valuable.
2) There is an assumption that sacrificing some keeping quality for batting will give the opposition fewer runs than sacrificing bowling for batting. Which will be true more often than not. But which needs to be assessed on a case-by-case basis. A statement like 'I care about whether my keeper can bat, but not my bowler' is just paraphrasing 'I don't believe in maths'.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

talk about being biased

Or there is more to it beyond plain numbers that low IQ people can not comprehend with.

 

[Johan]

Or there is more to it beyond plain numbers that low IQ people can not comprehend with.

I see, that's why you can't comprehend the what saying Kapil had worse pitches to bowl on implies

 

[kyear2]

Because you don't expect your keeper to average like 10 with the bat. 27 is the bare minimum there. I am genuinely having struggle with your inability to grasp that.....

It's about output not expectation.

How is that hard to grasp.

Plus, they both batted primarily at 7.

So again, how is one below par and unacceptable, while the batting if the other elevating them to ATG status.

Healy is by multiple times of magnitude a better keeper than Kapil is a bowler and basically equal as batsmen.

So with both expected to bat at 7, one is unacceptable to you, while the other, again elevates just average bowling performances to an ATG all round cricketer.

I'm genuinely struggling with your inability to see the hypocrisy.

And let's be clear, given a choice between the two batting at 7 or 8 for my team, there's zero debate which I would choose.

One was the best keeper I ever personally watched and one was an average bowler.

 

[kyear2]

A team with a bowler who averages 35 and a keeper who averages 15 is going to score the same amount of runs as a team who goes keeper 35 and bowler 15.

Keeping and bowling are both essential. The reasons people often consider it essential to staple batting onto a keeper but not a bowler are:

1) Because there is an expectation keepers can do it since so many can. Which is basically a roundabout way of saying batting from a bowler is rarer and more valuable.
2) There is an assumption that sacrificing some keeping quality for batting will give the opposition fewer runs than sacrificing bowling for batting. Which will be true more often than not. But which needs to be assessed on a case-by-case basis. A statement like 'I care about whether my keeper can bat, but not my bowler' is just paraphrasing 'I don't believe in maths'.

The reason that the batting of one's keeper is stressed more than that for one's bowlers, is that once again, the wicket keeper is the steadfast 2nd all rounder position. Batting is a pre- requisite. It's isn't for bowling, because bowling is by far the primary prerequisite and most smart teams isn't hurting their bowling quality for additional batting.

It's not about match, it's the trade off. As with the other thread, I'm not reading Walsh's superior bowling for Kapil's ability to bat. One was a great at his primary responsibility to get batsmen out, the other merely good.

 

[kyear2]

I see, that's why you can't comprehend the what saying Kapil had worse pitches to bowl on implies

This is what bothers me about India being flat argument...

He averaged better at home. I have Subz on ignore, but was puzzled by a response by a response you gave and uncovered the post, to see him suggesting that Kapil was heavily tampering as well, but to lesser effects.

He averaged 26 at home and over 30 away, think 32. If he had averaged the reverse, then it would have been a consideration to take into account how bad his home conditions were for him. But it was the opposite.

Also all this talk about how flat India was, during Sunny's career really is something isn't it. Doesn't that somewhat further push the supposedly false narrative that Sunny really was a hair weather merchant?

 

[OverratedSanity]

This is what bothers me about India being flat argument...

He averaged better at home. I have Subz on ignore, but was puzzled by a response by a response you gave and uncovered the post, to see him suggesting that Kapil was heavily tampering as well, but to lesser effects.

He averaged 26 at home and over 30 away, think 32. If he had averaged the reverse, then it would have been a consideration to take into account how bad his home conditions were for him. But it was the opposite.

Also all this talk about how flat India was, during Sunny's career really is something isn't it. Doesn't that somewhat further push the supposedly false narrative that Sunny really was a hair weather merchant?

Working backwards from how Kapil did in certain conditions to make a conclusion about how flat they were is stupid. Asian pitches are worse for fast bowling, they're slower, with less bounce and also very dry with less seam movement. He failed to adapt his bowling as well to more helpful pitches in England mainly because of being conditioned to bowling a shorter length on. Asian pitches. You can ding him for his away record being unimpressive but trying to argue his home pitches weren't flat is just peak stupidity. They were objectively not great for quick bowling for the most part throughout his career.

Also, no one bigs up Gavaskar for his home record in particular. He had big series in virtually every country he played in at some stage of his career.

 

[h_hurricane]

Kyear2 was one a good friend of Kapil. Back in August 1991, when Marshall played his last test and was on 376 wickets, Kyear2 requested Kapil (who was on the same no. of wickets) to retire too as he considered it a bit disrespectful that an average bowler takes more wickets than his God. Kapil refused and played on and on until he broke Hadlee's record. They haven't been on talking terms since then.

 

[capt_Luffy]

It's about output not expectation.

How is that hard to grasp.

Plus, they both batted primarily at 7.

So again, how is one below par and unacceptable, while the batting if the other elevating them to ATG status.

Healy is by multiple times of magnitude a better keeper than Kapil is a bowler and basically equal as batsmen.

So with both expected to bat at 7, one is unacceptable to you, while the other, again elevates just average bowling performances to an ATG all round cricketer.

I'm genuinely struggling with your inability to see the hypocrisy.

And let's be clear, given a choice between the two batting at 7 or 8 for my team, there's zero debate which I would choose.

One was the best keeper I ever personally watched and one was an average bowler.

Lol this is just stupid. Virtually every keeper can bat, no they have to bat. I am genuinely struggling with your train of logic here lol.

 

[kyear2]

Lol this is just stupid. Virtually every keeper can bat, no they have to bat. I am genuinely struggling with your train of logic here lol.

Because you don't want to.

You're focusing on expectations rather than output.

You're being deliberately obtuse.

Because every keeper can bat, doesn't make his contribution as a no. 7 any less viable than Kapil's.

If both are batting at 7, how is Kapil's contribution greater than that of Healy's?

But to you, one makes Healy non viable, despite he's one of the greatest keepers ever and Dev, despite being just good at his job, it makes him an ATG?

You're focusing on one not generally having that extra value, but it still the same added value that the other guy provides, that you say isn't good enough.

You are basically saying, both batted at 7, but was want good enough, while the other was.

This isn't Imran who's an ATG bowler who on bowling skill alone can walk into most teams in history and who's batting would then be an added bonus. Plus is a candidate for an AT world XI, and lock for a 2nd team. You aren't getting great bowling from Kapil.

 

[kyear2]

Working backwards from how Kapil did in certain conditions to make a conclusion about how flat they were is stupid. Asian pitches are worse for fast bowling, they're slower, with less bounce and also very dry with less seam movement. He failed to adapt his bowling as well to more helpful pitches in England mainly because of being conditioned to bowling a shorter length on. Asian pitches. You can ding him for his away record being unimpressive but trying to argue his home pitches weren't flat is just peak stupidity. They were objectively not great for quick bowling for the most part throughout his career.

Also, no one bigs up Gavaskar for his home record in particular. He had big series in virtually every country he played in at some stage of his career.

Where do I argue that his home out jes aren't flat?

I saying it can't be used as the reason for his poor record. His average there is passable.

What I did say, is that it would be a more useful argument if his away record was sterling, then we can say he and his average was definitely hampered by his home record.

 

[kyear2]

Kyear2 was one a good friend of Kapil. Back in August 1991, when Marshall played his last test and was on 376 wickets, Kyear2 requested Kapil (who was on the same no. of wickets) to retire too as he considered it a bit disrespectful that an average bowler takes more wickets than his God. Kapil refused and played on and on until he broke Hadlee's record. They haven't been on talking terms since then.

Do you ever post anything of value or is it just trolling at this point?

 

[sayon basak]

Personally think any methology that concludes Healy>Kapil as a cricketer is flawed. Kapil definitely won more matches for his team than Healy ever did with his Keeping.

 

[Bolo.]

The reason that the batting of one's keeper is stressed more than that for one's bowlers, is that once again, the wicket keeper is the steadfast 2nd all rounder position. Batting is a pre- requisite. It's isn't for bowling, because bowling is by far the primary prerequisite and most smart teams isn't hurting their bowling quality for additional batting.

It's not about match, it's the trade off. As with the other thread, I'm not reading Walsh's superior bowling for Kapil's ability to bat. One was a great at his primary responsibility to get batsmen out, the other merely good.

The reason that WK is typically considered an AR position is because it is typically a position that teams have an AR of suitable quality to fill with.

In a team that struggles less with bowling ARs, you arent going to structure your selections around what works for other teams at the expense of your own team strength.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Sobers, Hadlee, Imran, Botham.. Etc are the names usually discussed along with the name Kapil Dev. That should be more than enough proof for his greatness.