Kapil Dev vs Courtney Walsh

[kyear2]

And here is what was actually going on...

Dude didn't even hesitate,

 

[kyear2]

There were accusations of umpires allowing him to overstep.

let's remove that series

he took the damn ball to the dressing room, idk what else can be said

I find that series very hard to accept, like I know Imran was a great bowler and that tampering was quite common back in the day but surely someone taking 40 @ 13 when the next best bowler manages 24 @ 35 is a red flag, all the overstepping/umpiring/immense tampering just makes it worse, that's the one series that I cut off from Imran's record (accept everything else tho).

When I say these things I get attacked, but theses no doubt as to what was happening.

But on question though.

Do you think that was the only series it occured?

It's interesting that the general consensus is Pakistan batsmen were treated more patriotically than Pakistan bowlers, but yeah that was fishy.

It was well litigated and discussed back then. It's only the consensus here.

 

[kyear2]

Hi @kyear2 it's polite to respond to questions.

I was off of the forum for almost two days, and not to be rude, but the question didn't make any sense.

To start, I don't automatically believe because you're an all rounder that you're automatically better.

Any system that places Kapil above a BAB candidate is ridiculously flawed.

I heavily weigh primary skills when it comes to cricketers, and I'm unaware which part of Kapil's game is better than Sachin's.

Im not a fan of bits and pieces all rounders and he also lacked Botham's impact during his peak. Taking into account all of that, I don't know how and where Kapil is better.

I don't see how he can bw rated an ATG or over Walsh, far less Sachin.

 

[kyear2]

I have him around Jack/Punter, people underestimate how different 2000s was, and how different it is to bat behind Hayden/Langer, Amla/Smith and Crawley/Pope.

I would say two things to that. Kallis played on some spicy home pitches, and for Punter, the eye test. Dude was immense and was a special kind of dominant.

He was generating chatter that he could enter the BAB category with Sachin and Lara.

The argument for Root is whether or not he's an ATG.

Your last point has merit.

 

[Johan]

I would say two things to that. Kallis played on some spicy home pitches, and for Punter, the eye test. Dude was immense and was a special kind of dominant.

He was generating chatter that he could enter the BAB category with Sachin and Lara.

The argument for Root is whether or not he's an ATG.

Your last point has merit.

@BazBall21 got the averages of a lot of the great Batsmen in below average scoring games.

Root 43.06
Ponting 39.39
Kallis 34.83

throughout Root's career, England has also been quite difficult to bat in with the exception of Nottingham 2022 and 2023 in general being a very hot year (not extremely high scoring, but definitely a little batting friendly).

 

[Johan]

When I say these things I get attacked, but theses no doubt as to what was happening.

But on question though.

Do you think that was the only series it occured?

it was definitely done in more serieses but this one is the most interesting to me because it's the series responsible for the absurd gap between Imran's home and away record.

 

[ataraxia]

I was off of the forum for almost two days, and not to be rude, but the question didn't make any sense.

To start, I don't automatically believe because you're an all rounder that you're automatically better.

Any system that places Kapil above a BAB candidate is ridiculously flawed.

I heavily weigh primary skills when it comes to cricketers, and I'm unaware which part of Kapil's game is better than Sachin's.

Im not a fan of bits and pieces all rounders and he also lacked Botham's impact during his peak. Taking into account all of that, I don't know how and where Kapil is better.

I don't see how he can bw rated an ATG or over Walsh, far less Sachin.

Once more, I agree with you. What I am asking for the fourth time is for you to please identify the problem(s) with the below argument.

Sure, let's say that Kapil replacing a team's worst frontline bowler offers zero bowling improvement – or decrease, they were both average. Based on those assumptions, he's still more valuable than Hobbs/Tendulkar, who are obviously both more valuable than Walsh. What do you say to that?

 

[Prince EWS]

What's funny is that by 1989 both India and Pakistan, including Kapil were tampering but they couldn't affect a result.

Skill issue.

 

[kyear2]

it was definitely done in more serieses but this one is the most interesting to me because it's the series responsible for the absurd gap between Imran's home and away record.

Really was a **** show.

 

[kyear2]

Once more, I agree with you. What I am asking for the fourth time is for you to please identify the problem(s) with the below argument.

What I would say is that as the teams 4th bowler he's already fairly far down the impact totem poll as a bowler. His impact is already somewhat diminished. He doesn't get the new ball, and likely handling the dog overs.

To add to that, a sub 30 rpi, I don't see how that compares to Hobbs and Tendulkar's impact and value.

You're the 4th bowler and no. 8 batsman, you're generally not moving the needle, certainly not comparable to what an ATG batsman can provide to a team.

So the argument is flawed from that perspective, I don't know how else to answer that.

Sachin and Hobbs are winning you games and impacting games way more often than Dev would be.

 

[ataraxia]

What I would say is that as the teams 4th bowler he's already fairly far down the impact totem poll as a bowler. His impact is already somewhat diminished. He doesn't get the new ball, and likely handling the dog overs.

To add to that, a sub 30 rpi, I don't see how that compares to Hobbs and Tendulkar's impact and value.

You're the 4th bowler and no. 8 batsman, you're generally not moving the needle, certainly not comparable to what an ATG batsman can provide to a team.

So the argument is flawed from that perspective, I don't know how else to answer that.

Sachin and Hobbs are winning you games and impacting games way more often than Dev would be.

Evidently you don't rate Kapil's bowling and you view him as average, fine. But he's also replacing another average bowler. With the bowling the same, his 20-run RPI advantage over the average tailender is actually greater than the advantage a Hobbs or Tendulkar has over a 40 RPI batter. So Kapil gets you 20 runs an innings whilst Hobbs/Tendulkar gets you 15. Whichever team scores the most runs wins (or draws, obviously). Seems a pretty clear decision from that point of view, no?

 

[subshakerz]

Really was a **** show.

What about 86 against WI?

 

[subshakerz]

What I would say is that as the teams 4th bowler he's already fairly far down the impact totem poll as a bowler. His impact is already somewhat diminished. He doesn't get the new ball, and likely handling the dog overs.

To add to that, a sub 30 rpi, I don't see how that compares to Hobbs and Tendulkar's impact and value.

You're the 4th bowler and no. 8 batsman, you're generally not moving the needle, certainly not comparable to what an ATG batsman can provide to a team.

So the argument is flawed from that perspective, I don't know how else to answer that.

Sachin and Hobbs are winning you games and impacting games way more often than Dev would be.

For Heaven's sake, Kapil isn't an average bowler. Enough with this.

And interesting how you shift goalposts on what is a necessary RPI.

And you killed your own argument by the way. If a 4th bowler role isn't as impactful, then clearly Kapil would be selected ahead of Walsh as a fourth bowler.

 

[kyear2]

Evidently you don't rate Kapil's bowling and you view him as average, fine. But he's also replacing another average bowler. With the bowling the same, his 20-run RPI advantage over the average tailender is actually greater than the advantage a Hobbs or Tendulkar has over a 40 RPI batter. So Kapil gets you 20 runs an innings whilst Hobbs/Tendulkar gets you 15. Whichever team scores the most runs wins (or draws, obviously). Seems a pretty clear decision from that point of view, no?

If you want to look at it from that perspective.

The average no. 8 generally averages what? Somewhere between 16 and 18?

So the average gain he provides is what, 10 rpi?

And let's not forget the lower order bats rpi becomes less important than rpm, based purely on the fact that they don't bat nearly as often as top 6 batters.
Kapil's rpm is only 40. So the amount of runs really gained per match over an average no. 8 is probably minimal.

Plus if Kapil is the 4th bowler, you have an incredibly strong bowling attack, and even less likely he's going to be asked to contribute often with the bat.

 

[ataraxia]

If you want to look at it from that perspective.

The average no. 8 generally averages what? Somewhere between 16 and 18?

So the average gain he provides is what, 10 rpi?

And let's not forget the lower order bats rpi becomes less important than rpm, based purely on the fact that they don't bat nearly as often as top 6 batters.
Kapil's rpm is only 40. So the amount of runs really gained per match over an average no. 8 is probably minimal.

Plus if Kapil is the 4th bowler, you have an incredibly strong bowling attack, and even less likely he's going to be asked to contribute often with the bat.

Kapil is not replacing the number eight; he's replacing the bowling weak-link who may bat anywhere from 8 to 11. A quick statsguru suggests their average RPI is 11.5 (but this is buoyed by the likes of Kapil and others who aren't really tailenders, so it's really a bit lower).

RPM is a contributing factor: it makes the 20 RPI advantage more like 15.

I thought you suggested Kapil was an average bowler?

 

[kyear2]

Kapil is not replacing the number eight; he's replacing the bowling weak-link who may bat anywhere from 8 to 11. A quick statsguru suggests their average RPI is 11.5 (but this is buoyed by the likes of Kapil and others who aren't really tailenders, so it's really a bit lower).

RPM is a contributing factor: it makes the 20 RPI advantage more like 15.

I thought you suggested Kapil was an average bowler?

You said he's replacing the weak link bowler.

That doesn't mean he's also the weak link batsman. There's no team where he's that.

 

[capt_Luffy]

How are you better than your numbers if you were pretty consistent throughout your career. There's no Botham or Punter decline that takes away from from they did during their prime.



There's no context where he was decent in England no Pakistan.

It is objectively poor.

Having a massive peak than dropping off isn't being better than numbers. Playing in flat tracks with **** support is.

He is decentish in England and pretty good in Pakistan. You are objectively wrong.

 

[ataraxia]

You said he's replacing the weak link bowler.

That doesn't mean he's also the weak link batsman. There's no team where he's that.

I don't understand.

 

[Coronis]

Having a massive peak than dropping off isn't being better than numbers. Playing in flat tracks with **** support is.

He is decentish in England and pretty good in Pakistan. You are objectively wrong.

No, he wasn’t.

 

[capt_Luffy]

No, he wasn’t.

Yes he was. Won 3 MOTM and was our main component in a whole ass series win in 86. One terrible series doesn't rights off the other things he did.