Kapil Dev vs Courtney Walsh

[DrWolverine]

Kapil Dev wasn’t a great bowler.
But being a great all rounder makes him valuable.

 

[capt_Luffy]

He bowled on some flat tracks in England and Pakistan, but to say averages of 39 and 40 are decent is still on the generous side, especially relative to the quality he's being compared against in these discussions.

Pakistan was consistently flat and there was perhaps also a bit of home umpire business against him there, but he never did particularly well in England despite some seam friendly conditions in 1986 for example.

He was India's main component in 86 series win (won us the 1st game, decent in the other 2) and did very well in 79 as well, almost leading to a draw. Neither is a Great series, but both definitely are quite good. He was alright in one other series (MoTM in one match, poor in the other 2) and while sucked in his last there.
In both of those countries, he had one poor series each, alongside two successes. You could argue that he should had averaged lower in the good series in England, which he should have, but overall I don't take huge issue with it. Pakistan two being 24@34 and 12@31 were pretty much very good given tracks and line-up and umpires (it still bonkers me Imran took 40@13 in the first, even with the blatant ball tampering); and his poor series was literally his debut in arguably the absolute worst road (Chandra averaged 48, Bedi 72 and Prasanna 100+).

 

[Johan]

He was India's main component in 86 series win (won us the 1st game, decent in the other 2) and did very well in 79 as well, almost leading to a draw. Neither is a Great series, but both definitely are quite good. He was alright in one other series (MoTM in one match, poor in the other 2) and while sucked in his last there.
In both of those countries, he had one poor series each, alongside two successes. You could argue that he should had averaged lower in the good series in England, which he should have, but overall I don't take huge issue with it. Pakistan two being 24@34 and 12@31 were pretty much very good given tracks and line-up and umpires (it still bonkers me Imran took 40@13 in the first, even with the blatant ball tampering); and his poor series was literally his debut in arguably the absolute worst road (Chandra averaged 48, Bedi 72 and Prasanna 100+).

let's remove that series

 

[BazBall21]

He was India's main component in 86 series win (won us the 1st game, decent in the other 2) and did very well in 79 as well, almost leading to a draw. Neither is a Great series, but both definitely are quite good. He was alright in one other series (MoTM in one match, poor in the other 2) and while sucked in his last there.
In both of those countries, he had one poor series each, alongside two successes. You could argue that he should had averaged lower in the good series in England, which he should have, but overall I don't take huge issue with it. Pakistan two being 24@34 and 12@31 were pretty much very good given tracks and line-up and umpires (it still bonkers me Imran took 40@13 in the first, even with the blatant ball tampering); and his poor series was literally his debut in arguably the absolute worst road (Chandra averaged 48, Bedi 72 and Prasanna 100+).

Pakistan was a very tough assignment (albeit I'd still fancy Gillespie to do better) but I would expect better output in England.

I think Kapil's longevity is testament to outstanding stamina, professionalism, and certainly being a good bowler, but not testament to being qualitively superior to his output because whatever his career length is, the production will remain similar.

 

[BazBall21]

let's remove that series

There were accusations of umpires allowing him to overstep.

 

[Johan]

There were accusations of umpires allowing him to overstep.

he took the damn ball to the dressing room, idk what else can be said

 

[BazBall21]

he took the damn ball to the dressing room, idk what else can be said

God only knows what happened if that's the case.

 

[Johan]

God only knows what happened if that's the case.

I find that series very hard to accept, like I know Imran was a great bowler and that tampering was quite common back in the day but surely someone taking 40 @ 13 when the next best bowler manages 24 @ 35 is a red flag, all the overstepping/umpiring/immense tampering just makes it worse, that's the one series that I cut off from Imran's record (accept everything else tho).

 

[BazBall21]

I find that series very hard to accept, like I know Imran was a great bowler and that tampering was quite common back in the day but surely someone taking 40 @ 13 when the next best bowler manages 24 @ 35 is a red flag, all the overstepping/umpiring/immense tampering just makes it worse, that's the one series that I cut off from Imran's record (accept everything else tho).

It's interesting that the general consensus is Pakistan batsmen were treated more patriotically than Pakistan bowlers, but yeah that was fishy.

 

[Johan]

It's interesting that the general consensus is Pakistan batsmen were treated more patriotically than Pakistan bowlers, but yeah that was fishy.

And here is what was actually going on...

 

[BazBall21]

To be fair, Kapil's durability was valuable to the team. That and helping team balance dynamics elevate his importance. But I don't think he was a notably better player in either discipline than his averages. He maintained a certain level for a very long time, but that doesn't make him a tougher bowler to negotiate than he was, or a more efficient batsman than he was.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Pakistan was a very tough assignment (albeit I'd still fancy Gillespie to do better) but I would expect better output in England.

I think Kapil's longevity is testament to outstanding stamina, professionalism, and certainly being a good bowler, but not testament to being qualitively superior to his output because whatever his career length is, the production will remain similar.

Well yes he certainly underperformed in England. I was arguing for the extent. Don't even think in context Pakistan was underperformance even.

Qualitative superiority is overrated against actual output. And while he wasn't the most consistent as in peak wise, he did produced some absolutely top tier performances in some pretty flat series and matches. Give him a better support (dude literally opened bowling with Gavaskar and Amarnath at times) and livelier home turf, and I do expect a prominent output increase.

 

[BazBall21]

Well yes he certainly underperformed in England. I was arguing for the extent. Don't even think in context Pakistan was underperformance even.

Qualitative superiority is overrated against actual output. And while he wasn't the most consistent as in peak wise, he did produced some absolutely top tier performances in some pretty flat series and matches. Give him a better support (dude literally opened bowling with Gavaskar and Amarnath at times) and livelier home turf, and I do expect a prominent output increase.

His actual output isn't great though, except the durability.

Having a good pressure-builder at the other end helps, but I don't think he had the fundamentals to do much better than he managed. Especially when you consider bowling isn't as volatile as batting, and his away average was 33 and never truly better at any stage of his career.

 

[capt_Luffy]

His actual output isn't great though, except the durability.

Having a good pressure-builder at the other end helps, but I don't think he had the fundamentals to do much better than he managed. Especially when you consider bowling isn't as volatile as batting, and his away average was 33 and never truly better at any stage of his career.

He has ATG returns against WI, that's pretty much as good a challenge as they came.

 

[BazBall21]

He has ATG returns against WI, that's pretty much as good a challenge as they came.

And yet you don't seem to apply the same logic to Gooch, who also has a great record v WI. Kapil has a great record v WI, but for me, his overall record isn't outstanding just as you think Gooch's isn't either. You seem to be pledging more importance on Kapil's high points than you do on Gooch's.

And while Kapil's durability is very good and important, he was never a better player in either discipline at any point of his career. His durability doesn't mean he was a tougher bowler to negotiate than he was or a more efficient batsman than he was.

 

[subshakerz]

And here is what was actually going on...

Imran had neutral umpires at home in 86 and averaged 11 with the ball against WI.

Not saying that tampering and umpires didn't help him but I wouldn't chalk all success to that.

Anyways Kapil clearly isn't as good a bowler as Walsh. I wouldn't try to stretch to make that argument.

 

[BazBall21]

Imran is no doubt one of the greatest ever on slow flat pitches.

 

[Johan]

Imran had neutral umpires at home in 86 and averaged 11 with the ball against WI.

Not saying that tampering and umpires didn't help him but I wouldn't chalk all success to that.

I didn't, I only said I feel like the 82-83 series is such an outlier compared to the rest of his career, is so absurd on paper and is so shady in nature that I find it hard to take it very seriously when severe tampering is very likely.

 

[capt_Luffy]

And yet you don't seem to apply the same logic to Gooch, who also has a great record v WI. Kapil has a great record v WI, but for me, his overall record isn't outstanding just as you think Gooch's isn't either. You seem to be pledging more importance on Kapil's high points than you do on Gooch's.

And while Kapil's durability is very good and important, he was never a better player in either discipline at any point of his career. His durability doesn't mean he was a tougher bowler to negotiate than he was or a more efficient batsman than he was.

I mean, Gooch simply wasn't consistent overall. His first half of career was largely very underwhelming. Still Gooch has raised quite much in my ratings (I like it or not) thanks to @Johan . Also never said Kapil is a Great with just bowling anyways.

I think that's a plus honestly. Consistency over high discrepancy. And he did had about as many Great matches with both the ball and the bat as you would generally expect from someone like him. It wasn't like he was incapable of delivering top tier performances with both disciplines.

 

[BazBall21]

I mean, Gooch simply wasn't consistent overall. His first half of career was largely very underwhelming. Still Gooch has raised quite much in my ratings (I like it or not) thanks to @Johan . Also never said Kapil is a Great with just bowling anyways.

I think that's a plus honestly. Consistency over high discrepancy. And he did had about as many Great matches with both the ball and the bat as you would generally expect from someone like him. It wasn't like he was incapable of delivering top tier performances with both disciplines.

Gooch - experienced struggles v one opposing team who succeeded in exposing his weaknesses in a few different long series. I think he was more consistent overall than people realise because he happened to face that opponent a disproportionate amount of times. Of course, the Ashes is significant.

Kapil - yes he has great performances, but that doesn't mean the other performances should be ignored or receive a drop in significance. Also the comparison here is Walsh. He was consistent throughout a very long career himself; but also whilst operating at a much higher level as a bowler.

I think it's a tough one. Walsh was a much better bowler, but he was also a strict no11.