Greg Chappell vs Jack Kallis

[Johan]

Better test Batsmen? only batting

 

[DrWolverine]

Greg

 

[Johan]

also, Chappell for me due to the legendary WSC series against prime Windies

 

[DrWolverine]

Greg reached a higher level
Kallis has a relatively more complete record
Good question

 

[sayon basak]

Kallis has a relatively more complete record

How? Greg was better across countries.

 

[DrWolverine]

Jack

 

[Dendarii]

Jacques Kallis was a very good batsman. Jack Kallis on the other hand...

 

[DrWolverine]

How? Greg was better across countries.

Barely played in Asia
Just 4 Tests

 

[Johan]

Greg Chappell in West Indies during WSC

620 runs in 9 innings, 68.8 average and 3 hundreds.

Bowlers – Michael Holding, Joel Garner, Andy Roberts and Colin Croft

 

[Johan]

Barely played in Asia
Just 4 Tests

shouldn't Kallis averaging 35 in England and Sri Lanka be a bigger issue than a potentially hypothetical issue for Chappell in case he failed in Asia? he was a little underwhelming against good outswing bowling, probably because of the stance.

 

[DrWolverine]

shouldn't Kallis averaging 35 in England and Sri Lanka be a bigger issue than a potentially hypothetical issue for Chappell in case he failed in Asia?

Kallis has an underwhelming record in England.

Greg didn’t play much in Asia.

It depends on which is a bigger issue for a person

 

[Srinath P]

Chappell pretty much had a flawless record isn't it

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Very close

 

[Bolo.]

shouldn't Kallis averaging 35 in England and Sri Lanka be a bigger issue than a potentially hypothetical issue for Chappell in case he failed in Asia? he was a little underwhelming against good outswing bowling, probably because of the stance.

I don't think you can average 56 over a million games in RSA with a weakness against swing. Players with actual issues against swing got butchered in RSA.

 

[Johan]

I don't think you can average 56 over a million games in RSA with a weakness against swing. Players with actual issues against swing got butchered in RSA.

I found a reading on movement country by country from 2018-2021, now I know that this isn't reflective of 2000s but the pitches should still hold relative resemblance to their 2000s variants (even though I think England and South Africa of that timeframe were tougher than the older ones).


England in the chart stands out as an outlier, I guess it just comes down to the Dukes. another example of a player with weakness against swing but a legendary record in South Africa would be Virat Kohli.

 

[Bolo.]

I found a reading on movement country by country from 2018-2021, now I know that this isn't reflective of 2000s but the pitches should still hold relative resemblance to their 2000s variants (even though I think England and South Africa of that timeframe were tougher than the older ones).

View attachment 45759
England in the chart stands out as an outlier, I guess it just comes down to the Dukes. another example of a player eith weakness against swing but a legendary record in South Africa would be Virat Kohli.

Degrees of movement is not a proxy for how hard facing movement is. Facing swing on a pancake is way easier to facing it on something lively.

2018 on is the bowling era. Why would you assume they will be the same? You have multiple countries playing with swingier balls and more lateral movement almost everywhere.

RSA was/is more condusive to swing than those stats suggest. Bowlers are quicker there- less time for the ball to move. Bowlers are often more content to let the pitch do the work, laterally or horizontally, because it works better there than elsewhere. You will see stuff like bowlers going cross seam at times when swing would still be more effective than just about everywhere else. If you want an idea of how much swing was posssible in Kallis' era for bowlers who were looking for it, just look at how much Kallis himself got.

Statistical variance over low numbers of games means you will always have players over/underperforming expectations in individual away countries. Its why I mentioned how many games Kallis played at home. Its enough to eliminate variance with a reasonable degree of confidence.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Kallis didn’t really have any major weaknesses against any type of bowling in my opinion

 

[Johan]

Degrees of movement is not a proxy for how hard facing movement is. Facing swing on a pancake is way easier to facing it on something lively.

2018 on is the bowling era. Why would you assume they will be the same? You have multiple countries playing with swingier balls and more lateral movement almost everywhere.

RSA was/is more condusive to swing than those stats suggest. Bowlers are quicker there- less time for the ball to move. Bowlers are often more content to let the pitch do the work, laterally or horizontally, because it works better there than elsewhere. You will see stuff like bowlers going cross seam at times when swing would still be more effective than just about everywhere else. If you want an idea of how much swing was posssible in Kallis' era for bowlers who were looking for it, just look at how much Kallis himself got.

Statistical variance over low numbers of games means you will always have players over/underperforming expectations in individual away countries. Its why I mentioned how many games Kallis played at home. Its enough to eliminate variance with a reasonable degree of confidence.

I never really claimed that South Africa lacked productivity towards swing bowling, it obviously didn't and the wickets were indeed lively, but I think the classical duke balls are significantly more suspect to large amounts of swing than the Kookaburas that have always been used in South Africa.

I don't really think my critique of his technique against high outswingers is something that should really be debunked by his performance in South Africa, you can have far more severe issues with swing bowling and find success in South Africa like Kohli did.

as you mentioned, South African wickets indeed have higher pace and playing most kind of bowlings would indeed be more difficult in South Africa but imo Kallis was a great player of pace, his issue came against someone spamming medium outswingers like Anderson did in 2007/8, in 2008 Anderson beat him with that exact tactic of tapping into the overly high movement of the duke ball and getting a edge on the outswinger or eventually getting a bold on the inswinger.

do you really believe the three consecutive tours of England where he performed under par (for himself) is just sample size related with nothing to do with any slight technical issue?

 

[Johan]

Kallis didn’t really have any major weaknesses against any type of bowling in my opinion

Yeah he's a complete Batsmen like Sangakkara, Root and Waugh but even Lara himself have slight vulnerabilities against forms of bowling, nobody is completely flawless.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Kallis’s only flaw was that he batted pretty slowly even though he had the talent to bat a lot faster