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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

Johan

Johan

International Captain
Thala_0710 said:
I've got Sachin at 2, Hutton at 7 and Gavaskar at 9
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1. Sir Donald Bradman
2. Jack Hobbs
3. Sachin Tendulkar
4. Viv Richards/Len Hutton
5. Viv Richards/Len Hutton
6. Garfield Sobers
7. Steven Smith
8. Brian Lara
9. Walter Hammond/Sunil Gavaskar
10. Walter Hammond/Sunil Gavaskar
11. George Headley
12. Herbert Sutcliffe


Hutton kind of just has a McGrath/Marshall tier flawless record so I have him quite high
 
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capt_Luffy

capt_Luffy

International Coach
Johan said:
1. Sir Donald Bradman
2. Jack Hobbs
3. Sachin Tendulkar
4. Viv Richards/Len Hutton
5. Viv Richards/Len Hutton
6. Garfield Sobers
7. Steven Smith
8. Brian Lara
9. Walter Hammond
10. George Headley
11. Sunil Gavaskar/Herbert Sutcliffe
12. Sunil Gavaskar/Herbert Sutcliffe

Hutton kind of just has a McGrath/Marshall tier flawless record so I have him quite high
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Don't really think Wally with his 37 Average in England Ashes should be higher than Gavaskar
 
Coronis

Coronis

International Coach
I reckon Knott’s best innings was probably his 106* against Australia at Adelaide in 75, against Lillee. Only century scored in the entire match, England 5/76 chasing 405. They still lost by a big margin but at least he made it not so embarrassing.
 
kyear2

kyear2

International Coach
Prince EWS said:
On the topic of the actual debate, I think Sobers as first change is fine if he's still effectively going to be the fifth bowler in terms of workload. I actually think it's a better use of him than having him come on with the old ball and bowl spin. I'd probably try to get him on second change in the 'normal' lineup anyway before the spinner.

The reason I don't select two spinners in my side is just because it'd be Marshall who I dropped and I just rate him too far ahead of the two spinners as a bowler to justify that. Sobers's role in it is fine IMO, dropping a batsman for another allrounder to bat 6 or 7 is overkill.
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Mostly makes sense, well all except for the part where Marshall is the one to be sacrificed for two spinners.

But yeah, the two spinners idea is best reserved for extreme circumstances and for the most part throws off the balance of the team a bit too much to be worth it overall.

Coronis said:
It was also slightly to placate someone’s fielding fears.



Team already has Bradman and Gilchrist. They can afford to have a weaker batsman who would be an amazing 3rd pacer. They cannot afford to have a Garry Sobers as a 3rd pacer.
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I would prefer, and a team would be less weakened by Sobers as the 3rd seamer and 5th bowler than having Miller or especially Imran batting at 6.

And the first part is a little disingenuous, it's not about "someone's fielding fears" if your attack is going to be made up of Warne, McGrath, Marshall and Murali / Hadlee, you catching is a priority, not an after thought. That's literally where the chances are going, and we're talking the vast majority of them.
 
kyear2

kyear2

International Coach
Coronis said:
The assumption for me at least, is that this team will face another ATG team. So it is about the matchups.

Obviously we already differ on our opinions of other players to be selected but lets try and ignore that. Once again disclaimer, the two spinners is not the ideal XI for any of us, this is to try and balance an XI with both of them locked in.

Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Bradman*
Tendulkar
Sobers
Miller/Imran (note: I would likely pick Imran, I brought up Miller due to the fielding complaints)
Gilchrist+
Marshall
Warne
Murali
McGrath

or

Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Bradman*
Tendulkar
Hammond
Sobers
Gilchrist+
Marshall
Warne
Murali
McGrath

Whilst increasing the batting advantage that this team will already have it provides a significant disadvantage in bowling imo.

Hutton
Gavaskar
Lara
Smith
Chappell
Kallis
Knott/whoever, add AB if you’re desperate to prove a batting strength point+
Hadlee
Steyn
O’Reilly
Ambrose


I just feel the first team matches up better. Still has a batting advantage, a far smaller gap in pace attack and a great advantage in spin.
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Selection differences aside.

Basically what I said above. Imran batting at 6 in an AT side gives away any advantage you get from having Bradman. You're a batsman short and for the sole purpose of having an additional bowler who wouldn't be getting that many overs, because if the two spinners are playing, it's a spinning deck.

You often bring up the advantages of having Bradman and Gilchrist, but Sobers is considerably more of an trump card than Gilchrist, with the entire premise behind that being that he can be your 3rd seamer without weakening the batting.
That's the oft ignored advantage that the WI and SA has over all the other countries (besides England with Hammond of course). Even Australia has to choose between going with the AT bat or bowler in that scenario.

If you're playing two spinners on a spinning track, not only is Sobers more than good enough as a 3rd seamer (he's not bowling that much anyways), he can also easily be your 3rd spinner.

If it's a seaming deck, he can swing in it as much as anyone in his prime and can still be a factor, and at the wrist can tie down an end while restricting the run flow.
 
kyear2

kyear2

International Coach
Tejretics said:
For a true all-time eleven, judging also by things I’ve read rather than things I’ve seen, I’d go:
  1. Jack Hobbs
  2. Barry Richards
  3. Don Bradman
  4. Brian Lara
  5. Steve Smith
  6. Garry Sobers
  7. Les Ames †
  8. Richard Hadlee
  9. Malcolm Marshall
  10. Shane Warne
  11. Sydney Barnes
Note, as earlier, that I think Tendulkar > Lara, and that Murali is the 2nd greatest bowler of all time behind Warne—I’m simply picking a team, and hence went with a left hander at No. 4 + only one true spinner (plus ~sorta Barnes and ~sometimes Sobers).

I prefer to pick an eleven based on players I’ve thought about and at least seen real footage of, which would mean:
  1. Barry Richards
  2. Gordon Greenidge
  3. Viv Richards
  4. Brian Lara
  5. Steve Smith
  6. Garry Sobers
  7. Adam Gilchrist †
  8. Wasim Akram
  9. Malcolm Marshall
  10. Shane Warne
  11. Dale Steyn
Note, once more, that I rate Tendulkar over Lara; but I also rate Gavaskar over Greenidge; McGrath, Hadlee, and Lillee over Akram; and Murali except every bowler besides Warne. I am merely picking a side that I think would work well.

If I were, instead, to pick an eleven based on their all-time-great status as individual cricketers—rather than as a team to take the field—it would be:
  1. Jack Hobbs
  2. Barry Richards
  3. Don Bradman
  4. Sachin Tendulkar
  5. Steve Smith
  6. Garry Sobers
  7. Les Ames †
  8. Malcolm Marshall
  9. Shane Warne
  10. Sydney Barnes
  11. Muttiah Muralitharan
(with special mentions to Imran Khan, Jacques Kallis, and Richard Hadlee, who narrowly miss making this side)
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Love (mostly) everything about these teams, lol.

I also select sides as if they're going to be taking the field, and with that being a factor there's a couple players that just have to be included, in Wasim and Barry.
Barry's combination of technique and aggression and how he fared vs the best of his era in all conditions, is unmatched in history and places him above the rest, his slip catching is a big bonus.
Wasim's record may not have been the best, and I too rate others above him. But his ability to move the ball both ways and his ranking as a top 2/ 3, if not the greatest ever old ball bowler, if the ball is reversing or not, is again unmatched. His batting to is a plus. He is pushed hard by Hadlee, Steyn and Imran in that order, though all for different reasons.

I don't rate Ames nearly as highly as you do and would go with Knott over him. I also prefer Viv over Smith, and there are about 3 reasons I would go with him over Smith and Lara, but it wouldn't be my hill to die on.

I also think that if you're selecting based on "greatness" or as an honor, then the team is slightly different. Hobbs and Hadlee / Steyn / Imran comes in. McGrath for me in both teams is standard, though Hadlee too has an argument there.
 
kyear2

kyear2

International Coach
R
Johan said:
1. Jack Hobbs
2. Len Hutton
3. Donald Bradman (C)
4. Viv Richards
5. Sachin Tendulkar
6. Garry Sobers
7. Adam Gilchrist (W.K)
8. Richard Hadlee
9. Malcolm Marshall
10. Shane Warne
11. Glenn McGrath
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Think that's the consensus pick on the forum right now
 
Thala_0710

Thala_0710

International 12th Man
kyear2 said:
One was the best batsman of the decade of the 50's and seen my many to be a candidate to be the best after Bradman.

One never was, and just isn't.
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Gavaskar was one of the best batsman of the 70s-80s. Hutton came just after Bradman and before guys like Sobers and Richards, a big reason for him being in the BAB convo for in many people's eyes.
I have Hutton over Gavaskar too but suggesting that they're not close or in seperate tiers is disrespectful to Gavaskar.
 
kyear2

kyear2

International Coach
Johan said:
didn't we have this convo? for you even Gavaskar vs Tendulkar is very arguable, while it's incomprehensible for me
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He also thinks that Sunny vs Richards is very arguable, something than no one who watched a ball of cricket in the 70's or 80's would agree with.
 
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