**Official** English Football Season 2024/25

[Skipper Pup]

I think the evidence of how the team performs without him in it is rather more testament to his ability.

Fair enough but then what does that mean for KDB?

A page or so back a City poster was claiming him to be in the top 3 prem players ever.

 

[Molehill]

Fair enough but then what does that mean for KDB?

A page or so back a City poster was claiming him to be in the top 3 prem players ever.

I think that may have been a City fan having a little joke, especially ignoring someone like Giggs (and other Man Utd players).

 

[BoyBrumby]

Fair enough but then what does that mean for KDB?

A page or so back a City poster was claiming him to be in the top 3 prem players ever.

It's not that an outlandish shout, surely?

I mean, one can make cases for others (Shearer, Giggs, Keane, Cantona, maybe even Fat Frank and Terry at a stretch) but he's up there.

 

[Chin Music]

Don't be silly, that's just an eye test. We need to see his stats and individual awards to check out whether he's elite tier or not!!

Seriously, that is one weird post by Skipper, I'm not sure where to even start with it. But he really doesn't seem to get that the vast majority of football fans (apart from seemingly those in major Spanish Cities, and that largely stemmed from the Messi/Ronaldo rivalry which no longer exists) do not give a **** about individual awards.

I have to say that I always struggled with the Messi/Ronaldo rivalry. It is so hugely overlooked that they were in sides that had some seriously great players alongside them and further back in their teams, especially the midfielders in both of their club sides. So, I simply can't judge them on club trophies that easily given who was also around them.

 

[sledger]

Club trophies, like any metric, when taken in isolation are hardly determinative in any case.

Mikael Silvestre, John Obi Mikel, and Gael Clichy, for example, have more PL medals than any Liverpool player ever, past or present.

 

[Chin Music]

Club trophies, like any metric, when taken in isolation are hardly determinative in any case.

Mikael Silvestre, John Obi Mikel, and Gael Clichy, for example, have more PL medals than any Liverpool player ever, past or present.

I'm not a play station football fan, never have been, nor am I beholden to stats. Any idiots w***ing themselves silly over XG over the last few years deserve all the abuse that they get.

 

[Skipper Pup]

It's a slippery slope.. we've now gone from not caring about individual honours, to now team trophies don't matter either.

It's not that an outlandish shout, surely?

I mean, one can make cases for others (Shearer, Giggs, Keane, Cantona, maybe even Fat Frank and Terry at a stretch) but he's up there.

I don't think it is at all, but I (seemingly opposed to most here) care about individual honours. KDB's stack up against anyone's which is why I put him in the conversation.

 

[Skipper Pup]

Club trophies, like any metric, when taken in isolation are hardly determinative in any case.

Mikael Silvestre, John Obi Mikel, and Gael Clichy, for example, have more PL medals than any Liverpool player ever, past or present.

Keep using that one while you can, it's only going to be valid for a few more weeks

p.s it's going to be a long off-season if you can't find other ways to get us off your mind. #stayhumble

 

[sledger]

I'm not a play station football fan, never have been, nor am I beholden to stats. Any idiots w***ing themselves silly over XG over the last few years deserve all the abuse that they get.

I mean stats are important, I think. But drunk people and lampposts etc.

 

[Chin Music]

I mean stats are important, I think. But drunk people and lampposts etc.

Yep, fair dos.

 

[speirz]

Club trophies, like any metric, when taken in isolation are hardly determinative in any case.

Mikael Silvestre, John Obi Mikel, and Gael Clichy, for example, have more PL medals than any Liverpool player ever, past or present.

I know it's not quite the point you're making, but I'd be interested to know which Liverpool player has won the most Premier League titles. Sterling? Milner? Or someone I'm forgetting altogether?

 

[sledger]

It probably is Milner or Sterling actually. I had forgotten them. Was too focused on enjoying the fact that Steven Gerrard didn't win a single one.

 

[Skipper Pup]

It's Sterling I believe. Joe Cole might be close.

Speaking of enjoyable facts - Rhian Brewster has as many Champions League medals as Thierry Henry and one more than Cesc Fabregas and Patrick Viera.

 

[Furball]

For example, Maradona is arguably the greatest ever despite only winning 11 trophies in his career.

11 trophies is ****ing loads, what the **** are you on about?

 

[Skipper Pup]

11 trophies is ****ing loads, what the **** are you on about?

Calm down old fella, it's all relative.

Ronaldo - 33
Messi - 41
Kroos - 34
De Bruyne - 23
Giggs - 35
Neymar - 30
Alves - 39
Lahm - 22
Henry - 20
Rooney - 18
Alonso - 17

That's a quick list and far from extensive but you get the point.

Instead of getting emotional try play the ball and not the man next time.

 

[Furball]

Calm down old fella, it's all relative.

Ronaldo - 33
Messi - 41
Kroos - 34
De Bruyne - 23
Giggs - 35
Neymar - 30
Alves - 39
Lahm - 22
Henry - 20
Rooney - 18
Alonso - 17

That's a quick list and far from extensive but you get the point.

Instead of getting emotional try play the ball and not the man next time.

Sure, if we're cherry-picking a bunch of players who were largely one club men at successful clubs in an era where trophies generally aren't shared out as much between clubs, then I guess you've proved your point.

 

[Himannv]

Calm down old fella, it's all relative.

Ronaldo - 33
Messi - 41
Kroos - 34
De Bruyne - 23
Giggs - 35
Neymar - 30
Alves - 39
Lahm - 22
Henry - 20
Rooney - 18
Alonso - 17

That's a quick list and far from extensive but you get the point.

Instead of getting emotional try play the ball and not the man next time.

Sure, but there is context there. Maradona, at his absolute peak, played the strongest league in the world by far at the time (Serie A) and was up against sides like Milan, Inter, Juve, Roma, and Fiorentina, all of whom were having their best ever teams or close to it. And despite all that, he still won it with Napoli with hardly any other great players in his side, and is rightly considered a Napoli legend for doing so.

 

[Furball]

The 'Maradona single handedly carried **** teams to major honours' thing needs to die btw.

 

[Skipper Pup]

Sure, if we're cherry-picking a bunch of players who were largely one club men at successful clubs in an era where trophies generally aren't shared out as much between clubs, then I guess you've proved your point.

It wasn't cherry picking at all. You'd find the same thing in other eras with Dalglish, Rush, Souness etc.
I wasn't around back then but the records speak for themselves. I imagine there would be similar tallies from any of the great Inter, AC Milan, Everton, Man United, Juve, Ajax, Madrid, Bayern teams. Incidentally the best players play for the best teams.

The point is Maradona is regarded by some as the greatest, of course he's going to be compared with players that have won a boatload of trophies.

I don't put any weight into the 'he carried them' argument either. The 'hand of God' moment is iconic, but its no more important than Iniesta's or
Gotze's goals in World Cup finals. Similarly, Maradona's individual performances in that tournament are no more special than Forlan's WC in 2010, the only difference is Maradona lifted the trophy - but here we are being told to disregard team achievements when contemplating a legacy.

My only argument throughout this entire conversation is that every record/stat should be considered and objectively balanced in these discussions. If you want to eliminate a certain metric because it doesn't suit the agenda then you just have to be aware your opinion is likely wrong/bias.

 

[Himannv]

The 'Maradona single handedly carried **** teams to major honours' thing needs to die btw.

They weren't a **** team, but those wins are still great achievements considering the context.

Napoli was certainly weaker than some of the other top Serie A teams in the 80s and they won the league twice (out of the 3 times they've won it in their history). They'd never won the league prior to that. Apart from MaGiCa, they had a few others who were decent as well, but if you compare it with the squads of other top teams, there is a difference.