subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Please check his performances in the UAE and recently in Pakistan. All on concrete pitches.
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Jimmy Anderson vs Ashwin
- Thread starter subshakerz
- Start date
capt_Luffy
International Coach
Strange to place him over Steyn or Marshall (aka funny).
Johan
International Captain
My favourite slow pitch spell from Jimmy is actually his 6/40 at Galle, that pitch was one of the most classical slow spinny day 1 pitches I've seen and English spinners ****ed it up and got taken to the cleaners, but Jimmy bowling 30 overs, giving only 40 runs and taking 6 wickets (5 proper bats) bowled Sri Lanka out under 400 which allowed Root to display a masterclass on how to play spin and allowed us to whitewash Sri Lanka.
Sensational spell, he didn't have the penetrative capabilities of Roberts or Macko but excellent in Asia regardless.
Sensational spell, he didn't have the penetrative capabilities of Roberts or Macko but excellent in Asia regardless.
Johan
International Captain
Roberts deserve a mention for Asia too.
Anderson loses to these guys for WPM imo but definitely not far from that tier in Asia, even when he was a **** bowler he heavily contributed to wins in India.
Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com
Out of home record:
Anderson: 82 tests - Avg 29.8 SR 64 8 5-fers
Ashwin : 41 tests - Avg 30.05 SR 62 8 5-fers
Great pacers have normally advantage in Avg and SR compared to great spinners, but away average & SR are in the same range for both. Both have 8 5-fers but Anderson played double the number of tests for the same number of 5-fers.
At home record:
Anderson: 106 tests - Avg 24.4 SR 52 24 5-fers [ 56% of career games ]
Ashwin : 65 tests - Avg 21.5 SR 46 29 5-fers [ 61% of career games at home ]
Away, there is no huge gap. At home Ashwin blows Anderson in all metrics( avg, SR , 5-fers rate )
Ashwin has 11 MOS in 106 tests. Anderson has 5 MOS in 188 tests. I think it does not capture only their bowling because Ashwin scored runs as well, but most of the MOS should have come due to his bowling. Some one can try to see series by series to isolate batting being a huge factor in any series and elimiate that. I am sure, Ashwin will have more than 5 MOS simply due to his bowling despite playing 106 tests versus 188 for Anderson. Ashwin was a huge factor in India being so dominating at home for so long.
I think Ashwin is closer to tier 1 spinners than Anderson to tier 1 pacers. Ashwin has poor avg in 2 venues out of all venues( Aus and SA). Top tier spinners Murali/Warne also had poor record in 2 venues. Not saying that Ashwin is in same class, but normally spinners are not going to have great record in all venues compared to pacers and yet Ashwin has same avg/SR and double the 5-fer rate playing away compared to Anderson.
I will go with Ashwin here. Not by much though.
Anderson: 82 tests - Avg 29.8 SR 64 8 5-fers
Ashwin : 41 tests - Avg 30.05 SR 62 8 5-fers
Great pacers have normally advantage in Avg and SR compared to great spinners, but away average & SR are in the same range for both. Both have 8 5-fers but Anderson played double the number of tests for the same number of 5-fers.
At home record:
Anderson: 106 tests - Avg 24.4 SR 52 24 5-fers [ 56% of career games ]
Ashwin : 65 tests - Avg 21.5 SR 46 29 5-fers [ 61% of career games at home ]
Away, there is no huge gap. At home Ashwin blows Anderson in all metrics( avg, SR , 5-fers rate )
Ashwin has 11 MOS in 106 tests. Anderson has 5 MOS in 188 tests. I think it does not capture only their bowling because Ashwin scored runs as well, but most of the MOS should have come due to his bowling. Some one can try to see series by series to isolate batting being a huge factor in any series and elimiate that. I am sure, Ashwin will have more than 5 MOS simply due to his bowling despite playing 106 tests versus 188 for Anderson. Ashwin was a huge factor in India being so dominating at home for so long.
I think Ashwin is closer to tier 1 spinners than Anderson to tier 1 pacers. Ashwin has poor avg in 2 venues out of all venues( Aus and SA). Top tier spinners Murali/Warne also had poor record in 2 venues. Not saying that Ashwin is in same class, but normally spinners are not going to have great record in all venues compared to pacers and yet Ashwin has same avg/SR and double the 5-fer rate playing away compared to Anderson.
I will go with Ashwin here. Not by much though.
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subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
There isn't a huge gap because Ashwin pillaged SL and WI.
Ashwin has zero fifers in SENA.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
I am talking dead pitches not SC overall.
Johan
International Captain
there are 15 ATG pacers to 3 ATG spinners in the history of this great sport, so Ashwin being closer to the top tier of spinners doesn't mean anything, someone like Lyon is closer to Warne than Anderson is to Marshall, doesn't mean anything. Ashwin and Anderson played 2010-2024, using your formula of top 5 sides by WL that you so eagerly apply on every single Pakistani pacer to ever exist.
Team records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com
Anderson: 149 @ 29.7
Ashwin: 72 @ 39.5
not to mention, 10 of Anderson's tests in Australia come in the flattest conditions ever (Ashes 2010 and 2017) and he got 41 @ 26.8, plus also bowled 5 games with broken ****ing ribs, with your logic/formula, Anderson has a clear advantage.
Jimmy played 17 tests in SL/WI and Ashwin played 12. So more oppurtunity for Anderson to pillaged SL/WI. He was not able to do that.
In SENA, a pacer should have a better reccord than a spinner otherwise entire copmparison would have been lopsided. Ashwin not being penetrative enough in SENA is reflected in his lack of 5-fers in SENA and it counts as negative. Point was, both got friendly and unfriendly conditions away and yet Ahswin has doube the rate of 5-fers per tests when playing away. That counts as positve for Ashwin.
Over all gap is not big away, but home over all gap is a big one.
Johan
International Captain
ok so Asia is friendly for spinners and SENA for pacers, so SENA should be treated as the test for spinners and Asia for pacers, during Ashwin's career:
Anderson in Asia: 80 @ 24.82.
Ashwin in SENA: 72 @ 39.55.
concede, Away from home isn't close.
About performance aginst top teams, top 4 sides during Anderson's career were Aus, Ind, SA and Eng by a wide margin and there is a big drop after that.
Anderson's record in test involving top 4 teams is not great:
Since SL and NZ are so close, you can go for top 6 test nations during Anderosn's career,
Anderson's record in tests involving top 6 test sides,
You can even take all test nations,
Anderson's output against all 8 test nations:
Anderson is averaging 28-29 ( home and away combined) in tests involving top 6 test nations. Anderson is aveaging 30 ( home and away combined) in tests involving top 4 test nations. Lack of quality by Anderson against top sides is clearly visible.
That's the main reason for Ashwin being closer to top tier spinner than Andetson being close to top tier pacers. It's not due to 3 ATG spinners Vs 15 ATG pacers. Ashwin is higher quaoity bowler than Anderson.
Performance against top sides are very good metric to judge anyone's class. Be it Pakistani pacers, Anderosn, Ashwin , Mcgrath or anyone else. How else we can judge anyone class , it can't be hey I stepped up against bottom tier or minnow teams. If you think it's not a good way to judge anyone, I am happy to hear counter arguments.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Yeah but Anderson was superb in UAE and Pakistan and has matchwinning spells in India and SL.
Ashwin only has more fifers in spin conditions and WI. Outside that he is poor generally.
Johan
International Captain
at home Ashwin is obviously better.
the discussion was away, and Anderson is clearly leagues ahead in Asia than Ashwin in SENA, Ashwin's advantages coming from West Indies where during Ashwin's career, Anderson averages 20.4.
if you concede Anderson is far better away I'll discuss their home records.
Away from home means away from home. It includes friendly and unfrendly conditions.
You can surely say that Anderson was better in pacer's friendly conditions. You can also say that Ashwin was not great in SENA. All of that will be correct.
But away( whcih includes freindly and unfriendly both for Anderson), his avg of 30 with just 8 5-fers. That captures his away record. Same for Ashwin.
capt_Luffy
International Coach
Australia and SA
Johan
International Captain
Ashwin averages 45 in those venues.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Anderson with weak records there is still well ahead of Ashwins failures away.
Disagree with the bold part. If you show it to anyone and say that one is pacer and one is spinner, no one will say that one is clearly leagues ahead. You can surely make a case of one being ahead though.
Out of home record:
Anderson: 82 tests - Avg 29.8 SR 64 8 5-fers
Ashwin : 41 tests - Avg 30.05 SR 62 8 5-fers
capt_Luffy
International Coach
Andy sucks at home to them as well. Won't say much different in Australia given Ashwin is a spinner.
Johan
International Captain
Anderson was better in tough away conditions for pacers aka Asia than any pacer in the last 10-15 years.
Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com
Ashwin averages 40 in SENA which is the Asia equivalent for spinners, there's no shame in conceding Anderson was a league ahead in conditions tough for his bowling