Jack Hobbs vs Garry Sobers

[Johan]

And 3.2 runs of average and a couple of years and a number of matches

the average gap is a resultant of the difference of Bangladesh and 2000s Zimbabwe. Read again mf on the other sentence mf.

 

[capt_Luffy]

the average gap is a resultant of the difference of Bangladesh and 2000s Zimbabwe. Read again mf on the other sentence mf.

You read again the averages you posted after removing Bangladesh gramps

 

[Johan]

You read again the averages you posted after removing Bangladesh gramps

Agephobic

 

[capt_Luffy]

Agephobic

Comeon, I was just showing respect to an elder.....

 

[Johan]

You read again the averages you posted after removing Bangladesh gramps

I can't take a 3 point (1.2 difference if last three years are included btw) seriously given the eras they played in

 

[Johan]

Comeon, I was just showing respect to an elder.....

 

[capt_Luffy]

I can't take a 3 point (1.2 difference if last three years are included btw) seriously given the eras they played in

I am pretty sure the difference gets reduced once you remove the last 2 for Sachin as well, not to mention 80s was so tough for WI. Aus, ENG and India had mid attacks and Pakistan and NZ were one man show.

 

[Johan]

I am pretty sure the difference gets reduced once you remove the last 2 for Sachin as well.

what?

 

[subshakerz]

the difference between them is of Bangladesh imo

and then it comes down to Longetivity vs Peak.

Yeah but it's more complicated.

Viv basically just had an extended less consistent but still very good phase before a sharp decline.

Tendulkar had a dip phase due to injuries, then a second peak when he became the best bat in the world again and then his own sharp decline. And it was longer overall period.

Objectively I would take Tendulkar's second career half over Viv's.

 

[Johan]

Yeah but it's more complicated.

Viv basically just had an extended less consistent but still very good phase before a sharp decline.

Tendulkar had a dip phase due to injuries, then a second peak when he became the best bat in the world again and then his own sharp decline. And it was longer overall period.

Objectively I would take Tendulkar's second career half over Viv's.

(I do think Viv also regained the best in world status for a couple years before falling off and his fall off was also due to having his eye issues)

but regardless, my intent was to debunk the output issues narrative, as long as that is put to rest, I don't care enough to debate second half Sachin vs second half Viv.

 

[sayon basak]

@capt_Luffy See? I watch better videos on YouTube.


(I'm gonna pretend like I never watched the video)

 

[Johan]

luffy was legit born after all the cool **** happened

 

[subshakerz]

but regardless, my intent was to debunk the output issues narrative, as long as that is put to rest, I don't care enough to debate second half Sachin vs second half Viv.

Yeah I never got that output issue. I understand Viv wasn't as consistent post peak but overall it's not a big deal.

 

[sayon basak]

You still didn't send me that list

Top 100 Greatest cricketers imo:-
1. Don Bradman
2. Garry Sobers
3. WG Grace
4. Sachin Tendulkar
5. Imran Khan
6. Jack Hobbs
7. Richard Hadlee
8. Viv Richards
9. Malcolm Marshall
10. Jacques Kallis
11. Shane Warne
12. Muttiah Muralitharan
13. Glenn McGrath
14. Sydney Barnes
15. Wasim Akram
16. Brian Lara
17. Wally Hammond
18. Keith Miller
19. Adam Gilchrist
20. Len Hutton
21. Ian Botham
22. Curtly Ambrose
23. Dale Steyn
24. Dennis Lillee
25. Steve Smith
26. Bill O'Reilly
27. Sunil Gavaskar
28. George Headley
29. Herbert Sutcliffe
30. Graeme Pollock
31. Kumar Sangakkara
32. Kapil Dev
33. Ray Lindwall
34. Joel Garner
35. Greg Chappell
36. Ricky Ponting
37. Shaun Pollock
38. Fred Trueman
39. Allan Donald
40. Wilfred Rhodes
41. Frank Worrell
42. Victor Trumper
43. Allan Border
44. Steve Waugh
45. KS Ranjitsinhji
46. Michael Holding
47. Rahul Dravid
48. AB De Villiers
49. Waqar Younis
50. Richie Benaud
51. Virat Kohli
52. Alan Davidson
53. Joe Root
54. Barry Richards
55. Mike Procter
56. Ken Barrington
57. Aubrey Faulkner
58. Allan Knott
59. Courtney Walsh
60. Andy Roberts
61. Clarrie Grimmett
62. James Anderson
63. Jim Laker
64. Fred Spofforth
65. Everton Weekes
66. Clyde Walcott
67. Kane Williamson
68. Denis Compton
69. Alfred Mynn
70. Jasprit Bumrah
71. Ravichandran Ashwin
72. Javed Miandad
73. Dudley Nourse
74. Hedley Verity
75. Frank Woolley
76. Anil Kumble
77. Alec Bedser
78. Harold Larwood
79. Pat Cummins
80. Neil Harvey
81. Peter May
82. Les Ames
83. Clive Lloyd
84. Geoffrey Boycott
85. George Lohmann
86. Andy Flower
87. MS Dhoni
88. Vintcent Van der Bijl
89. Gordon Greenidge
90. Bart King
91. Bob Simpson
92. Godfrey Evans
93. Charlie Macartney
94. Arthur Shrewsbury
95. Tom Richardson
96. Vijay Merchant
97. Vijay Hazare
98. Martin Crowe
99. Rohan Kanhai
100. Billy Beldham

Honourable mentions:- Shakib Al Hasan, Kagiso Rabada, Frank Roro, Tommy Kelaart, Ravindra Jadeja, Younis Khan

 

[Johan]

strong disagreements but appreciate the effort.

 

[sayon basak]

strong disagreements but appreciate the effort.

I am not sure about some of the players. You could state the objections, that'd be helpful.

 

[Johan]

I am not sure about some of the players. You could state the objections, that'd be helpful.

the obvious ones would be

1. why is Joe Root below Virat Kohli, or for that matter, Ray Lindwall? he beats both on primary though it's much closer with Lindwall, and he has a secondary set for dustbowls too. if we're discussing captaincy impact, then Hutton shouldn't be below Lara and Clive Lloyd shouldn't be so far from Kohli considering their batting isn't actually all that far apart anymore and he's a better captain. though, I don't give Kohli captaincy points anyway because his captaincy was just having more faith in pacers and he got lucky because Ishant and Shami came good under him and he found Bumrah.

2. McGrath is better than Atleast Warne imo, he was always the bigger threat.

3. AB De Villiers is a little too high, his batting is suffeciently overrated imo, great player in tough situations but very much a downhill skier at times, a lot of his record is built from bashing West Indies and his numbers in the top 4 are surprisingly alarming, didn't come up when the team needed him and a little selfish in the test format, atleast in my opinion, definitely don't think he's a greater Cricketer than Jasprit Bumrah.

4. Border below Ponting doesn't make sense, Border's impact on Cricket and his contribution toward Australia becoming the Cricket dynasty it became is unprecedented, until 1989 Australia and England weren't far apart, but Border's team almost destroyed their Ashes rival's cricket and he inspired a generation of greats, also think he was a better Batsmen than Ponting when the going got tough but that's a discussion for another time.

5. Don't really agree with Dev so far ahead, I rate him as an ATG but not above Trueman or Donald type players.

6. Personally think Aubrey Faulkner should be higher, he averages as high as anyone from his era with the bat and was a front line bowler on matted and wet pitches too.

these are some immediate disagreements.

 

[Thala_0710]

Top 100 Greatest cricketers imo:-
1. Don Bradman
2. Garry Sobers
3. WG Grace
4. Sachin Tendulkar
5. Imran Khan
6. Jack Hobbs
7. Richard Hadlee
8. Viv Richards
9. Malcolm Marshall
10. Jacques Kallis
11. Shane Warne
12. Muttiah Muralitharan
13. Glenn McGrath
14. Sydney Barnes
15. Wasim Akram
16. Brian Lara
17. Wally Hammond
18. Keith Miller
19. Adam Gilchrist
20. Len Hutton
21. Ian Botham
22. Curtly Ambrose
23. Dale Steyn
24. Dennis Lillee
25. Steve Smith
26. Bill O'Reilly
27. Sunil Gavaskar
28. George Headley
29. Herbert Sutcliffe
30. Graeme Pollock
31. Kumar Sangakkara
32. Kapil Dev
33. Ray Lindwall
34. Joel Garner
35. Greg Chappell
36. Ricky Ponting
37. Shaun Pollock
38. Fred Trueman
39. Allan Donald
40. Wilfred Rhodes
41. Frank Worrell
42. Victor Trumper
43. Allan Border
44. Steve Waugh
45. KS Ranjitsinhji
46. Michael Holding
47. Rahul Dravid
48. AB De Villiers
49. Waqar Younis
50. Richie Benaud
51. Virat Kohli
52. Alan Davidson
53. Joe Root
54. Barry Richards
55. Mike Procter
56. Ken Barrington
57. Aubrey Faulkner
58. Allan Knott
59. Courtney Walsh
60. Andy Roberts
61. Clarrie Grimmett
62. James Anderson
63. Jim Laker
64. Fred Spofforth
65. Everton Weekes
66. Clyde Walcott
67. Kane Williamson
68. Denis Compton
69. Alfred Mynn
70. Jasprit Bumrah
71. Ravichandran Ashwin
72. Javed Miandad
73. Dudley Nourse
74. Hedley Verity
75. Frank Woolley
76. Anil Kumble
77. Alec Bedser
78. Harold Larwood
79. Pat Cummins
80. Neil Harvey
81. Peter May
82. Les Ames
83. Clive Lloyd
84. Geoffrey Boycott
85. George Lohmann
86. Andy Flower
87. MS Dhoni
88. Vintcent Van der Bijl
89. Gordon Greenidge
90. Bart King
91. Bob Simpson
92. Godfrey Evans
93. Charlie Macartney
94. Arthur Shrewsbury
95. Tom Richardson
96. Vijay Merchant
97. Vijay Hazare
98. Martin Crowe
99. Rohan Kanhai
100. Billy Beldham

Honourable mentions:- Shakib Al Hasan, Kagiso Rabada, Frank Roro, Tommy Kelaart, Ravindra Jadeja, Younis Khan

Great effort. 1 question, what is the approx weightage split to Tests and ODIs in your list?

 

[sayon basak]

the obvious ones would be

1. why is Joe Root below Virat Kohli, or for that matter, Ray Lindwall? he beats both on primary though it's much closer with Lindwall, and he has a secondary set for dustbowls too. if we're discussing captaincy impact, then Hutton shouldn't be below Lara and Clive Lloyd shouldn't be so far from Kohli considering their batting isn't actually all that far apart anymore and he's a better captain. though, I don't give Kohli captaincy points anyway because his captaincy was just having more faith in pacers and he got lucky because Ishant and Shami came good under him and he found Bumrah.

2. McGrath is better than Atleast Warne imo, he was always the bigger threat.

3. AB De Villiers is a little too high, his batting is suffeciently overrated imo, great player in tough situations but very much a downhill skier at times, a lot of his record is built from bashing West Indies and his numbers in the top 4 are surprisingly alarming, didn't come up when the team needed him and a little selfish in the test format, atleast in my opinion, definitely don't think he's a greater Cricketer than Jasprit Bumrah.

4. Border below Ponting doesn't make sense, Border's impact on Cricket and his contribution toward Australia becoming the Cricket dynasty it became is unprecedented, until 1989 Australia and England weren't far apart, but Border's team almost destroyed their Ashes rival's cricket and he inspired a generation of greats, also think he wasa a better Batsmen than Ponting when the going got tough but that's a discussion for another time.

these are some immediate disagreements.

Um.....This is not a test only list. Test was given the highest priority, but limited over for modern players and FC for older players were also taken into account.

And yeah, you're right about McGrath. I'm just not sure about the 10th-14th spot at all.

 

[capt_Luffy]

the obvious ones would be

1. why is Joe Root below Virat Kohli, or for that matter, Ray Lindwall? he beats both on primary though it's much closer with Lindwall, and he has a secondary set for dustbowls too. if we're discussing captaincy impact, then Hutton shouldn't be below Lara and Clive Lloyd shouldn't be so far from Kohli considering their batting isn't actually all that far apart anymore and he's a better captain. though, I don't give Kohli captaincy points anyway because his captaincy was just having more faith in pacers and he got lucky because Ishant and Shami came good under him and he found Bumrah.

2. McGrath is better than Atleast Warne imo, he was always the bigger threat.

3. AB De Villiers is a little too high, his batting is suffeciently overrated imo, great player in tough situations but very much a downhill skier at times, a lot of his record is built from bashing West Indies and his numbers in the top 4 are surprisingly alarming, didn't come up when the team needed him and a little selfish in the test format, atleast in my opinion, definitely don't think he's a greater Cricketer than Jasprit Bumrah.

4. Border below Ponting doesn't make sense, Border's impact on Cricket and his contribution toward Australia becoming the Cricket dynasty it became is unprecedented, until 1989 Australia and England weren't far apart, but Border's team almost destroyed their Ashes rival's cricket and he inspired a generation of greats, also think he was a better Batsmen than Ponting when the going got tough but that's a discussion for another time.

5. Don't really agree with Dev so far ahead, I rate him as an ATG but not above Trueman or Donald type players.

6. Personally think Aubrey Faulkner should be higher, he averages as high as anyone from his era with the bat and was a front line bowler on matted and wet pitches too.

these are some immediate disagreements.

Most of these issues gets resolved once you consider it's Test + ODIs + FC etc.
Agree very strongly with McGrath and think Lindwall is better than Root clearly.