Rank the 80s allrounders against the WI

[BazBall21]

No doubt Hadlee did infact won and drew a series vs WI. That's a fair point. I just think Kapil doing much better away all round and close to that at home, especially with double the matches, wins this.

I forgot they actually won one of them. Historical significance which he was heavily responsible for.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I forgot they actually won one of them. Historical significance which he was heavily responsible for.

I think it simply is down to what you value more. India did drew one vs WI also though, but yeah, NZ won one. I think it comes down to Team result vs home/away significance.

 

[BazBall21]

I think it simply is down to what you value more. India did drew one vs WI also though, but yeah, NZ won one. I think it comes down to Team result vs home/away significance.

Not necessarily because principles don't have to be that rigid.

Hadlee's team-oriented accomplishments have historical significance. I'm generally not a fan of attaching team results to player status (I despise it when fairly average players/contributions receive that luxury) but it makes more sense for Hadlee because he was an absolute beast in both series. Kapil did have one series that was almost on that level in 1983-84. He was very good in 1982/83&1988/89 (albeit the latter was when WI batting was tailing off), but I think Kapil 1983/84 and Hadlee's two home series would be the three in the top tier.

Kapil slightly better with the bat, but Hadlee did okay against them there.

 

[BazBall21]

It is very close though and I certainly won't complain with anyone for saying Kapil was better against them.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Not necessarily because principles don't have to be that rigid.

Hadlee's team-oriented accomplishments have historical significance. I'm generally not a fan of attaching team results to player status (I despise it when fairly average players/contributions receive that luxury) but it makes more sense for Hadlee because he was an absolute beast in both series. Kapil did have one series that was almost on that level in 1983-84. He was very good in 1982/83&1988/89 (albeit the latter was when WI batting was tailing off), but I think Kapil 1983/84 and Hadlee's two home series would be the three in the top tier.

Kapil slightly better with the bat, but Hadlee did okay against them there.

Fair. I just think doing Great in WI amounts to more than just away.

 

[Johan]

what happened with Botham in the 1986 West Indies series

 

[subshakerz]

The competition was here Hadlee, who averaged 32 vs them. I said Kapil is better than him vs them. Also like, his 83 tour was legit good batting.

The ultimate challenge of the era was doing well in WI and Kapil bowled much than Hadlee there as well as scored useful knocks, so I give him the edge.

 

[BazBall21]

Fair. I just think doing Great in WI amounts to more than just away.

Not to be confrontational, but it's interesting that you've played down Gooch's record v WI a couple of times when he had an unbelievable tour there and always performed against them at home as an opener for a team that was generally getting violated.

 

[BazBall21]

what happened with Botham in the 1986 West Indies series

He did okay with the ball (albeit not the level of the other three) against them up until that series, having been a consistent disappointment v them with the bat.

That tour went properly **** up all round and he never really recovered.

 

[Johan]

He did okay with the ball (albeit not the level of the other three) against them up until that series, having been a consistent disappointment v them with the bat.

That tour went properly **** up all round and he never really recovered.

He did win 2 games for England in the 1986 Ashes which is a big deal when assessing legacy, but man that series sounds like a nightmare for him, he was actually pretty decent against them with the ball before, also managed to bat decently against them in the 84 series, but 86 reads like a proper massacre.

 

[BazBall21]

He did win 2 games for England in the 1986 Ashes which is a big deal when assessing legacy, but man that series sounds like a nightmare for him, he was actually pretty decent against them with the ball before, also managed to bat decently against them in the 84 series, but 86 reads like a proper massacre.

Yeah he had a decent series in the 1986/87 ashes but nothing much in tests after that. A combination of his own lifestyle&England flogging him.

 

[Johan]

Yeah he had a decent series in the 1986/87 ashes but nothing much in tests after that. A combination of his own lifestyle&England flogging him.

also feel like his injuries caught up to him when his health slacked a little.

 

[BazBall21]

also feel like his injuries caught up to him when his health slacked a little.

Yeah I suspect once he was in a downward spiral, too much damage had been done (in terms of both injury damage&lifestyle consequences to get fitter again.

I think Ollie Robinson is somewhat similar to that now. He can't get properly fit without getting injured due to a decade of a less than remarkable lifestyle. It takes a toll.

Botham though was overbowled.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Not to be confrontational, but it's interesting that you've played down Gooch's record v WI a couple of times when he had an unbelievable tour there and always performed against them at home as an opener for a team that was generally getting violated.

Gooch's record vs WI is magnificent. His overall record isn't. I never questioned 81 tour, but pointed out he wasn't much in 86, 90 was just 2 matches (86 in an innings is enough to be good in my book).

 

[Johan]

this again...Gooch>Greenidge, you have to cope.

 

[BazBall21]

Gooch's record vs WI is magnificent. His overall record isn't. I never questioned 81 tour, but pointed out he wasn't much in 86, 90 was just 2 matches (86 in an innings is enough to be good in my book).

Your stance has changed since a debate we had a while back. Fair enough.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Your stance has changed since a debate we had a while back. Fair enough.

I am mostly flexible on them despite coming off as ruggish. Though I don't remember criticizing Gooch for WI really.

 

[BazBall21]

I am mostly flexible on them despite coming off as ruggish. Though I don't remember criticizing Gooch for WI really.

We don't need to go over it; it was over a year ago I think.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

They didn't stop this in 1985, Viv continued this formula pretty much as long as he was the captain. Border was targeted and given a torrid time in 1988-89 series. His 100th Test match was something he would like to forget. Nevertheless some opposition captains handled it better than others.

Coney only averaged 12ish in 86/87 (his final series before retirement).

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Hadlee has to take some credit for being the leading pillar behind holding WI to series draws which was a rare accomplishment.

1 series win, 1 series loss, 1 series draw