Imran Khan vs Curtley Ambrose

[Sliferxxxx]

He didn't bowl in two tests in 84 against Aus, two tests in 90 against WI and two tests against SL in 91, because he was playing as a bat in all of those.

So his actual WPM is 4.4

Faith enough. You are correct. Still he had less competition for wickets relative to Sir Curtly. Curious about the sr though. I expected it to be much better since you like to harp on that.

 

[subshakerz]

We're not comparing these guys to Broad and Kapil. Yes, 28 in that context is mediocre.

You told me you don't consider his 1990 series as counting. Were you lying?

 

[Sliferxxxx]

You said earlier he sucked in Australia.

He sucked relative to Ambrose. The same way Ambrose sucked in Pakistan relative to a Walsh who was elite there.

 

[subshakerz]

Faith enough. You are correct. Still he had less competition for wickets relative to Sir Curtly. Curious about the sr though. I expected it to be much better since you like to harp on that.

His SR was also impacted by playing as a part time bowler but still ahead of Ambrose. But I don't harp on SR as much as actual low yield in those countries by Ambrose.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

He sucked relative to Ambrose. The same way Ambrose sucked in Pakistan relative to a Walsh who was elite there.

I don't honestly think Imran sucked anywhere he just wasn't up to Atg standards overall in some places. Any bowler who averages under 30 imo, is doing the bare minimum. I have a similar parameter for batting: over 40 is the bare minimum with 50+ being great (more leeway for openers).

 

[subshakerz]

He sucked relative to Ambrose. The same way Ambrose sucked in Pakistan relative to a Walsh who was elite there.

Yeah but if you admit Imran was still quality in Aus and Eng, Ambrose being admittedly better isn't really a game changer for the argument that Ambrose didn't have quality returns outside Eng, Aus and WI.

 

[kyear2]

I don't honestly think Imran sucked anywhere he just wasn't up to Atg standards overall in some places. Any bowler who averages under 30 imo, is doing the bare minimum. I have a similar parameter for batting: over 40 is the bare minimum with 50+ being great (more leeway for openers).

He genuinely wasn't up to ATG elite standards away from home, don't think that can even be disputed.

 

[subshakerz]

I don't honestly think Imran sucked anywhere he just wasn't up to Atg standards overall in some places. Any bowler who averages under 30 imo, is doing the bare minimum. I have a similar parameter for batting: over 40 is the bare minimum with 50+ being great (more leeway for openers).

How do you rate Steyn who also has high averages in many places?

 

[DrWolverine]

We're not comparing these guys to Broad and Anderson. Yes, 28 in that context is mediocre.

The insult to Broad & Anderson

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Yeah but if you admit Imran was still quality in Aus and Eng, Ambrose being admittedly better isn't really a game changer for the argument that Ambrose didn't have quality returns outside Eng, Aus and WI.

Here's the thing, you can include Imrans strongest away countries use Ambrose's worse and they're still fairly close. What does that say to you?

 

[DrWolverine]

How do you rate Steyn who also has high averages in many places?

Steyn being the only top pacer during his era makes his case very special.

Steyn’s average in many countries is mediocre though
In Aus : 28.7 in 7 Tests
In Eng : 31.5 in 5 Tests
In NZ : 26.5 in 3 Tests(low sample size)
In SL : 30.3 in 6 Tests
In UAE : 32.7 in 4 Tests

 

[Van_Sri]

No. I am copying the breakdown of Imran series by series in Aus. Comparing it to Ambrose in Pakistan doesn't make sense.

His 1990 series was an outlier we can exclude since he was basically a regular bat and part time bowler then.

His other series came in 84/85 when he played two tests as a pure bat and didn't bowl a ball as he had his shin injury.

Ignoring those, there are his series in Australia:

76/77: 18 wickets @ 26 breakthrough series against Aus the best side in the world, including his 12fer to draw the series

78: WSC 25 wickets @20, arguably the best bowler of the series

78/79: 7 wickets @40, poor series

80/81: 16 wickets@19 against a full strength Aus side

So in his actual bowling prime above, he took 66 wickets in 13 tests@24.

That's the reality of his Aus record. It's nothing short of very good.

Well Said Imran could have had a better bowling record if he purely focused on Bowling like Ambrose.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Yeah but if you admit Imran was still quality in Aus and Eng, Ambrose being admittedly better isn't really a game changer for the argument that Ambrose didn't have quality returns outside Eng, Aus and WI.

I admit, I look at Imran in Australia the same way you look at Ambrose in Pakistan.

 

[kyear2]

How do you rate Steyn who also has high averages in many places?

Was wondering when you would get to this.

Steyn played in a batting era where everywhere but SA was flat. Some are a little too high, but it at least makes sense.

Imran played in a bowling era where according to you everywhere but Pakistan was lively.

See the difference?

 

[kyear2]

The insult to Broad & Anderson

Well it's true, lol

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Well Said Imran could have had a better bowling record if he purely focused on Bowling like Ambrose.

And Ambrose would've had a much better record were it not for surgery that seriously diminished his abilities.

 

[kyear2]

Well Said Imran could have had a better bowling record if he purely focused on Bowling like Ambrose.

Or carried his home umpires abroad.

Look at his home record again.

 

[subshakerz]

Was wondering when you would get to this.

Steyn played in a batting era where everywhere but SA was flat. Some are a little too high, but it at least makes sense.

Imran played in a bowling era where according to you everywhere but Pakistan was lively.

See the difference?

So you can allow context for Steyn but not Imran.

 

[kyear2]

And Ambrose would've had a much better record were it not for surgery that seriously diminished his abilities.

Like a baseball pitcher, could have very much been on somewhat of a pitch count.

Never heard anything if the sort though.

But yeah, his powers were diminished, yet still maintained his average and for the most part, s/r.

 

[subshakerz]

And Ambrose would've had a much better record were it not for surgery that seriously diminished his abilities.

His pre 94 career isn't THAT much better. Mainly it's his penetration that suffered.