Imran Khan vs Curtley Ambrose

[subshakerz]

How many were able to maintain their average, far less one as ridiculous as Ambrose's.

We are talking about low sample and low yield not pretty averages.

You are the guy who classified 5 wickets in 2 tests in NZ@22 as a worldclass performance.

 

[subshakerz]

And you haven't addressed Imrans less than elite away issue, even excluding places he did worst.

I did several times. All we are doing is repeating ourselves. You didn't address Ambrose small sample issue head on.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Do you include WSC or not?

I don't and they shouldn't. They weren't tests and never have been. Afaik, the only tests that were retro actively downgraded were the Eng world xi matches in the 60s or 70s (i can't remember) I believe after the canceled south africa tour.

 

[DrWolverine]

Arguments against Akram
A proven performer but not a brilliant record like Ambrose or Lillee or Donald

Arguments against Imran
A proven performer but not a brilliant record like Ambrose or Lillee or Donald

Arguments against Lillee
Picked 6 wickets in 5 Tests outside Aus, Eng and NZ

Arguments against Ambrose
Picked 36 wickets in 12 Tests outside Aus, Eng and WI

Argument against Donald
A near perfect but a mediocre record against Aus

 

[Sliferxxxx]

I did several times. All we are doing is repeating ourselves. You didn't address Ambrose small sample issue head on.

What sample size in Asia? OK he didn't play alot of tests in Asia. Happy?

 

[DrWolverine]

Pick what you choose in a bowler

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Arguments against Akram
1. A proven performer but not a brilliant record like Ambrose or Lillee or Donald

Arguments against Imran
1. A proven performer but not a brilliant record like Ambrose or Lillee or Donald


Arguments against Lillee
1. Picked 6 wickets in 5 Tests outside Aus, Eng and NZ

Arguments against Ambrose
1. Picked 36 wickets in 12 Tests outside Aus, Eng and WI


Argument against Donald
1. A near perfect but a mediocre record against Australia(53 wickets in 14 Tests @ 31)

Those 5 are fairly close and practically interchangeable. I agree.

 

[kyear2]

Imran’s Average could have been around 25-26 with Neutral Empires and Curtly Ambrose Average Could have been 22-23 if he regularly played in the sub-continent. Imran the better Batsman and Captain could have been in an All Time XI over Ambrose.

It's very important to not forget the prolific ball tampering.

 

[kyear2]

Imran’s Average could have been around 25-26 with Neutral Empires and Curtly Ambrose Average Could have been 22-23 if he regularly played in the sub-continent. Imran the better Batsman and Captain could have been in an All Time XI over Ambrose.

Yes. He's much closer to an AT XI than Ambrose.

McGrath and Hadlee makes sure of that.

 

[subshakerz]

I don't and they shouldn't. They weren't tests and never have been. Afaik, the only tests that were retro actively downgraded were the Eng world xi matches in the 60s or 70s (i can't remember) I believe after the canceled south africa tour.

Yes but @kyear2 does for Chappell and Viv and argues passionately that WSC reflect in their records.

Then he decides not to for Imran because it goes against his argument. So he is a blatant hypocrite.

 

[pardus]

Yeah because Walsh is proven in more places than Ambrose (using the same logic) but Ambrose is better.

I was thinking the same thing. Walsh's performance in India & Pakistan is absolutely insane.
Superior to the likes of Donald & McGrath & arguably even Marshall.
Especially impressive considering that Walsh played far more Test matches than Donald or Marshall in the subcontinent.

 

[kyear2]

In World Series Cricket Imran had the Best Average among the bowlers who took 25 or more wickets

So let me let you in on something. It was a bowlers series, in general, but that one in particular. The WI leg was high scoring and Lillee took some stick, but the series where Barry, Viv and Imran played was very bowler friendly.

That's why the batsmen get credit for what they did. All of the bowlers did well, only two batsmen in that series and 3 overall did well.

Imran was 3rd among the bowling averages.


I'll try to get the stats from that tour alone

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Yes but @kyear2 does for Chappell and Viv and argues passionately that WSC reflect in their records.

Then he decides not to for Imran because it goes against his argument. So he is a blatant hypocrite.

Maybe I should sit this one out and let you and kyear2 hash out your differences??

 

[kyear2]

It's actually worse than what Ambrose did in Pakistan where Ambrose was "middling."

Yup.

And I'm done with this thread, took me most if the day to make it through, and this isn't remotely close.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Yup.

And I'm done with this thread, took me most if the day to make it through, and this isn't remotely close.

 

[subshakerz]

Curtly Ambrose Average Could have been 22-23 if he regularly played in the sub-continent.

We have no idea how Ambrose would have done in the SC. He likely would have struggled in India and SL particularly post 94.

 

[Prince EWS]

This thread is moving way too fast to read

 

[subshakerz]

So let me let you in on something. It was a bowlers series, in general, but that one in particular. The WI leg was high scoring and Lillee took some stick, but the series where Barry, Viv and Imran played was very bowler friendly.

That's why the batsmen get credit for what they did. All of the bowlers did well, only two batsmen in that series and 3 overall did well.

Imran was 3rd among the bowling averages.
View attachment 44657

I'll try to get the stats from that tour alone

Wow so you will give bats credit and include their numbers, but not bowlers. Utter tripe.

 

[kyear2]

Arguments against Akram
A proven performer but not a brilliant record like Ambrose or Lillee or Donald

Arguments against Imran
A proven performer but not a brilliant record like Ambrose or Lillee or Donald

Arguments against Lillee
Picked 6 wickets in 5 Tests outside Aus, Eng and NZ

Arguments against Ambrose
Picked 36 wickets in 12 Tests outside Aus, Eng and WI

Argument against Donald
A near perfect but a mediocre record against Aus

Two observations.

Can't really compare Lillee and Ambrose. Somewhat of a gap between 6 and 36 wickets.

There really isn't much of an argument against Donald.

Perceptions aside no reason why he doesn't have an argument to be above Imran. Someone should do a poll...

 

[subshakerz]

Maybe I should sit this one out and let you and kyear2 hash out your differences??

I would if he wasn't a hyperpartisan hack.