Imran Khan vs Curtley Ambrose

[subshakerz]

But that 97 India team at least had a young, strong batting lineup and the pitches in that series - other than the one at Barbados - were absolutely dead.
Despite having batsmen like Lara, Hooper, Tendulkar, the 97 series mainly reminds me of Sidhu's dreary double century and India 4th innings collapse in Barbados.
4 of the 5 Tests ended in dull draws. Given the hype (Lara vs Tendulkar etc.), it was one of the most boring Test series I have watched.
Given all this, Ambrose's poor series performance as a fast bowler is understandable.

In 89 series though, everything was in Ambrose's favor. Wickets were fast bowler friendly. India innings total crossed 300 just once in the entire series. India lost the 4-match Test series 3-0 (one match got rained off after Windies finished their first innings). This means West Indies bowlers took around 60 Indian wickets in the series of which Ambrose's share was just 5 of those 60 wickets.
There is no explanation. I just think it was a one-off. I honestly don't think Ambrose is as pathetic as his figures in that 89 series against India show. Nor do I think that, that Indian batting lineup was especially skilfull against a bowler of Ambrose's quality on those pitches (while being miserable against Walsh, Marshall and Bishop).
Just a one-off, I can't see any logical reason.

I agree in a sense that he seemed jinxed against India. Just a bogie side though we don't know how he would have done in India.

 

[Van_Sri]

 

[Van_Sri]

 

[Van_Sri]

I am unable to understand why Imran is better than Ambrose ? Stats clearly points out that Ambrose was better.

 

[kyear2]

He shouldn’t even be in the team as the keeper then tbh. At worst he is the 4th best batsman to come out of the SC (personally I have him third but can definitely see the argument for Dravid).

There's two parts to that.

He was really good to Murali, and the SC team lacks that top order all rounder, so 5 bowlers may have to be an option. Not a food one, but an option. Him keeping affords that flexibility.

Plus if it isn't him the consensus would be Pant over an actual glove man like Jayawardene.

But yeah, the best place for him is probably at 3 and gloveless.

 

[kyear2]

You hide it well.

Ikr.

 

[kyear2]

I never argued that Lara was below par away only based on overall average, I would go into individual countries and series by series performances to make my case.

You don't care to do that though. For example, anyone who thinks Imran was below par in WI for averaging 25 is delusional.

It's not ATG, it's a good performance.

India and Australia were below par.

 

[subshakerz]

It's not ATG, it's a good performance.

India and Australia were below par.

66 wickets in 13 tests@24 in Aus isn't below par.

And six wickets a test @45 SR in WI is ATG. But we aren't going to disagree with your rigid view of stats.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

This thread hasn't discussed Lara's

No you stop the bs of using group averages of countries that have nothing to with each.

You guys were the ones asking how Ambrose and Imran did country by country. That only leaves Eng, Aus, NZ, Pak, SL and WI they commonly played. Ambrose excels in Eng and Aus, Imran the rest then.

Is an average of 26 and sr of 60 good enough for an elite bowler away yes or no?

 

[kyear2]

No you stop the bs of using group averages of countries that have nothing to with each.

You guys were the ones asking how Ambrose and Imran did country by country. That only leaves Eng, Aus, NZ, Pak, SL and WI they commonly played. Ambrose excels in Eng and Aus, Imran the rest then.

Stop showing how Imran did outside of Pakistan in a bowling era?

Where Pakistan was supposed to be the toughest place to bowl and everywhere else was a bowling paradise by comparison?

Where he averaged 26 and a s/r of 60, yet you claim he's a top tier ATG?

 

[Van_Sri]

66 wickets in 13 tests@24 in Aus isn't below par.

And six wickets a test @45 SR in WI is ATG. But we aren't going to disagree with your rigid view of stats.

Imran was more of a balanced bowler who did fairly well in all conditions.

 

[subshakerz]

Is an average of 26 and sr of 60 good enough for an elite bowler away yes or no?

It doesn't exclude Imran as elite, no.

 

[kyear2]

The other series had deliberate featherbeds prepared by India to ensure no result, similar to Lillee in 79.

But you always tell me that Imran due to playing and succeeding in Pakistan was a master of flat wickets. Isn't that supposed to be his MO?

Why was India such a challenge then?

 

[Sliferxxxx]

66 wickets in 13 tests@24 in Aus isn't below par.

And six wickets a test @45 SR in WI is ATG. But we aren't going to disagree with your rigid view of stats.

Imran khan did not take 66 wickets in 13 tests in Australia and you won't find those stats anywhere. Imran in actual tests, took 45 wickets in Australia at an average of 28 and sr of 67.

 

[subshakerz]

Stop showing how Imran did outside of Pakistan in a bowling era?

Where Pakistan was supposed to be the toughest place to bowl and everywhere else was a bowling paradise by comparison?

So first you ask for country by country, and now you switch to raw average. Seems you are just throwing anything out there.

 

[DrWolverine]

I am unable to understand why Imran is better than Ambrose ? Stats clearly points out that Ambrose was better.

1. Ambrose is better

2. Ambrose is unproven in few places

Can both be true?

 

[DrWolverine]

Imran was more of a balanced bowler who did fairly well in all conditions.

This is true.

 

[kyear2]

Yes. They are deliberately misconstruing the argument against Ambrose.

Low sample outside supportive conditions and low yield in that low sample.

Where in the world was flatter than ARG and Bourda?

Australia had Sydney and at times Adelaide which wasn't helpful in that era.

This supportive pitch argument is idiotic. The SC didn't have the only "flat" pitches...

But this is the interesting point. When we discussed Sachin Tendulkar the other day and I mentioned how ridiculously flat his home pitches were, you said they weren't in the 90's.

A ridiculous lie, but now which was it? Were India's pitches in the 90's flat or not?

 

[Sliferxxxx]

It doesn't exclude Imran as elite, no.

Funny you dont keep that same energy with other cricketers but whatever...

 

[kyear2]

Yes but consensus can change. Lillee was well ahead of Wasim previously. Now Wasim is ahead.

Here? No he isn't.

Very much split.

This isn't and hasn't been.