Imran Khan vs Curtley Ambrose

[subshakerz]

imo Sanga is a huge waste at #6 in an XI

Only position he can retain his keeping without getting wasted.

 

[Coronis]

Only position he can retain his keeping without getting wasted.

What

 

[subshakerz]

I always felt Ambrose was jinxed against India (a bit like Lara).
In the 1989 home series, pitches were extremely fast bowler friendly and Indian batting performance in that series wasn't particularly great. There was no logical reason why Ambrose couldn't have performed well in that series.
While Bishop/Marshall/Walsh shared the spoils, Ambrose just couldn't get into the party.
I remember Bishop was vey very quick back then. One of his thunderbolts breaking the forearm of Indian opener Kris Srikkanth in the last ODI match.

He had a poor series against them in 97 too.

 

[subshakerz]

What

He said batting at no.3 as keeper was too demanding. So batting down the order should be easier to keep his keeping.

 

[subshakerz]

I have no issue with them being included, I include them for everyone and it factors in to how I rate the Richards x2, Chappell etc ...

But it's either they do or they don't.

Can't be convenient, and even more importantly it doesn't invalidate the stats outside of those 4 tests.

Why did he averaged 28?

Huh? If you say you include WSC in principle, he doesn't average 28.

66 wickets in 13 tests @ 24 in Australia are his real bowling returns. That includes quality series in 76 and 81 against full strength Aussie sides.

 

[kyear2]

Jeez get over the Miller vote man.

It's the point. One you will harp on and use as consensus and repeat ad nauseum, this you will ignore.

 

[kyear2]

I think a few of the polls that conducted in 2022 and then bumped recently would be different if done today.

Exactly my point.

There was also one last year with the rankings.

Wasn't close there either.

 

[subshakerz]

It's the point. One you will harp on and use as consensus and repeat ad nauseum, this you will ignore.

I just cited that because you want to make it seem like Kallis being level with Imran was some consensus, which it's clearly not if he can't overtake Miller.

 

[subshakerz]

Exactly my point.

There was also one last year with the rankings.

Wasn't close there either.

We agree then.

 

[Coronis]

He said batting at no.3 as keeper was too demanding. So batting down the order should be easier to keep his keeping.

He shouldn’t even be in the team as the keeper then tbh. At worst he is the 4th best batsman to come out of the SC (personally I have him third but can definitely see the argument for Dravid).

 

[kyear2]

Good admission. Finally.



Pakistan for one. NZ even with small sample. Also WI frankly but we don't need to go there.


They both performed great overall but I always said and Ambrose was ATG in Aus.

So basically the only place Imran performed better than Sir Curtly was in Pakistan where he, well we all know.

How is someone better while not performing better literally anywhere besides at home with his "advantages"

 

[kyear2]

Ambrose played 3 series in the subcontinent.
In 2 of those 3 series, Ambrose did very well.
Agreed he failed miserably in the one series in 1997 but then he bowled in only 2 innings in that series (he was nursing a back injury and bowled significantly lesser than other West Indian bowlers).
I don't think Ambrose can be rightly called as a failure in the SC.

He can't, but he's grasping at straws. Does the same with Kallis.

 

[kyear2]

Curtly Ambrose barely played in the subcontinent.
He played like one proper series
1990 in Pak : 3 Tests(106 overs)14 wickets @ 17.
1993 in SL : 1 Test(18 overs). 3 wickets @ 9.
1997 in Pak : 2 Tests(44 overs). 1 wicket @ 149.

Ok, so where was Imran successful in the SC?

Simple question. Pakistan was home, SL was a minnow and India was a failure.

So again, where did he prove himself away from home in the SC?

 

[Sliferxxxx]

He can't, but he's grasping at straws. Does the same with Kallis.

All I know is this, if Lara averaging 48 away from home and only averaging over 50 in SL is poor by atg standards, then using that same energy, so too is Imran who averaged 26 and had a sr of 60.

Of the teams he played away, Imran only averaged under 25 in England struck under 60, only in WI. Even using just England and Australia, Ambrose already averages under 25 in more countries than Imran. Overall would be 3 with South Africa.

 

[subshakerz]

So basically the only place Imran performed better than Sir Curtly was in Pakistan where he, well we all know.

And WI and NZ.

 

[Van_Sri]

He shouldn’t even be in the team as the keeper then tbh. At worst he is the 4th best batsman to come out of the SC (personally I have him third but can definitely see the argument for Dravid).

Sanga had the experience of keeping wickets for Murali so he will be in the Team.

 

[Prince EWS]

I think that it's Imran that overrated to be honest.

You hide it well.

 

[subshakerz]

All I know is this, if Lara averaging 48 away from home and only averaging over 50 in SL is poor by atg standards, then using that same energy, so too is Imran who averaged 26 and had a sr of 60.

Of the teams he played away, Imran only averaged under 25 in England struck under 60, only in WI. Even using just England and Australia, Ambrose already averages under 25 in more countries than Imran. Overall would be 3 with South Africa.

I never argued that Lara was below par away only based on overall average, I would go into individual countries and series by series performances to make my case.

You don't care to do that though. For example, anyone who thinks Imran was below par in WI for averaging 25 is delusional.

 

[subshakerz]

Ok, so where was Imran successful in the SC?

He has an entire home career in Pak. Last I checked Pak was in SC.

 

[kyear2]

So to be fair to Subz, I excluded Imran's stats in India and Australia the places he did "worse" and included places he did the best away: NZ, WI and Eng. Here is his output below:

24 mts 112 wkts ave 25.15 and sr 57. And those are the three places Imran did the best in, which by coincidence happen to be more conducive to pace. Great wpm, good average and OK sr.

Ambroses record in his 3 worse places:

12 mts 36 wkts ave 23 sr 58. And those are the 3 places he played outside of England and Australia. Poor wpm but excellent average and ok sr. Wpm come on let's be real, he had to compete with Walsh, Bishop, Marshall. Nevertheless wpm is poor.

Should I even bother posting Ambrose's best 3 away locations compared to Imrans best? The picture is clear. Imran was below atg standard away, where as Ambrose was not. Averaging 26 and sr of 60 away is simply not good enough.

Oh wow, wonder what @subshakerz answer to that one was.

Even in Imran's 3 most successful countries, vs Curtly's worst 3 countries Ambrose still had a better average and similar s/r.

That's interesting.

In any event, away from home Imran was definely below elite ATG standards.