Imran Khan vs Curtley Ambrose

[subshakerz]

Yeah that's fine but none of those teams was the best of their times. Why are we missing that point. Again, between 1993 and 2007 (i believe) Australia didn't lose a series at home. Ambrose was the main culprit behind that last series loss.

Which again you evading the point. The point is conditions, not team quality. Australia was ideal for his bowling and he played a lot there as well as England.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

I must say subz has made some decent arguments against Ambrose.

I think we've been overrating him.

As in Lillee gets heavily penalized for his SC record, the same should apply to Ambrose.

Umm coming from a Imran fanatic, really?? Anyways, it's relevant when compared to players like McGrath and Marshall who were great everywhere (for the most part) but not Imran. Why? Because Imran was only great in England and WI. I'm of course using the cut off of 25 same way we use a cut off of 50 for batsmen.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Which again you evading the point. The point is conditions, not team quality. Australia was ideal for his bowling and he played a lot there as well as England.

So it's ideal for Imran as well but he sucked there relatively speaking. That's not Ambrose' fault.

 

[subshakerz]

Umm coming from a Imran fanatic, really?? Anyways, it's relevant when compared to players like McGrath and Marshall who were great everywhere (for the most part) but not Imran. Why? Because Imran was only great in England and WI. I'm of course using the cut off of 25 same way we use a cut off of 50 for batsmen.

Imran was great in Aus with context. And Pakistan of course.

But you haven't addressed his low sample issue.

 

[subshakerz]

So it's ideal for Imran as well but he sucked there relatively speaking. That's not Ambrose' fault.

He didnt. 66 wickets in 13 tests@24 as I showed with context.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Which again you evading the point. The point is conditions, not team quality. Australia was ideal for his bowling and he played a lot there as well as England.

Additionally, if conditions there are so ideal, why is he the only fast bowler of his time with overall greatness there. Australia had absolutely no fear of any of his contemporaries but Ambrose, even to this day they still speak of with awe. I honestly think that in 1997 had he not been injured for the 4th test, WI would've come back from 1-2 to win that series.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Imran was great in Aus with context. And Pakistan of course.

But you haven't addressed his low sample issue.

Imran was not great in Australia in test matches as sanctioned by the ICC. Average of 29 and sr of 68....nope.

Regarding Ambrose's sample size he played enough outside the Caribbean and in varying conditions and against strong enough lineups to rate him among the best. Only missing a tests in India.

 

[subshakerz]

Additionally, if conditions there are so ideal, why is he the only fast bowler of his time with overall greatness there. Australia had absolutely no fear of any of his contemporaries but Ambrose, even to this day they still speak of with awe. I honestly think that in 1997 had he not been injured for the 4th test, WI would've come back from 1-2 to win that series.

Nobody is doubting his quality in those conditions anymore than we do Lillee in England. We want to know outside his ideal conditions.

 

[subshakerz]

Imran was not great in Australia in test matches as sanctioned by the ICC. Average of 29 and sr of 68....nope.

Yeah bogus and intentionally not really looking at how he actually performed as a pure bowler

Regarding Ambrose's sample size he played enough outside the Caribbean and in varying conditions and against stronger enough lineups to rate him among the best. Only missing a tests in India.

Again don't evade the point. Outside Eng, Aus, and WI, just 12 tests. Very small sample and nothing to show.

 

[kyear2]

With context:
Eng 47 wickets in 11 tests@23 (excluding teen debut)
Aus 66 wickets in 13 tests@24 (including WSC and excluding 84 and 1990 series played as bat)
WI 48 wickets in 8 tests@25 (no fuss here just an awesome record)
NZ 17 wickets in 4 tests @26 (small sample but hey at least he took more wickets than Ambrose)

Plus an awesome home record unlike Ambrose.

23 in England isn't nearly as good as Ambrose there, nor the other greats from Imran's sea.

Why are we excluding series and adding WSC as convenient. If he was playing as a batsman it wouldn't impact his bowling number would it?

Are you excluding or placing into context series where Ambrose wasn't 100% post injury? Or is that the time period that you're exclusively focusing on? See the difference?

Still 24 isn't close to Ambrose's record there, and 28 is below par.

25 in the Caribbean isn't awesome, it wasn't a failure by any means, but it wasn't ATG either. The last series was against a batting team that wasn't even a shadow of itself and in Imran's best game Viv (well post peak and in decline mind you), wasn't even in the line up. ATG performance in a country is wickets combined with a low average, like Ambrose's vs Australia for example. 25 was good quite good, let's stop with the hyperbole.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Yeah bogus and intentionally not really looking at how he actually performed as a pure bowler


Again don't evade the point. Outside Eng, Aus, and WI, just 12 tests. Very small sample and nothing to show.

Tell you what, I agree so long as you also agree that Imran's record away from home is underwhelming for an atg just like Lara in batting. Imran averages 26 and strikes at 60 away (excluding minnow SL). That includes matches in conditions you say are conducive to pace. They are fwiw.

 

[kyear2]

Well rounded in you opinion but he's the only atg fast bowler with an away average over 25. That's simply not good enough to be amongst the elites. I like my fast bowlers to average below 25. His average outside Pakistan without SL (minnows) is 26.4 at a sr of 60. Ambrose could double his matches in Asia, South Africa, and NZ and he wouldn't come remotely close to that.

26.4 with a strike rate of 60 outside of Pakistan?

That's a little outside of the scope of elite ATG quality or tier. Especially considering how much more, according to Subz, the pitches were outside of Pakistan.

 

[subshakerz]

23 in England isn't nearly as good as Ambrose there, nor the other greats from Imran's sea.

Hadlee was 25 in England.

Why are we excluding series and adding WSC as convenient. If he was playing as a batsman it wouldn't impact his bowling number would it?

You already agreed to take 74 to 89 as his bowling period so it's those numbers.

Are you excluding or placing into context series where Ambrose wasn't 100% post injury? Or is that the time period that you're exclusively focusing on? See the difference?

Please mention which series and we can contextualise.

25 in the Caribbean isn't awesome, it wasn't a failure by any means, but it wasn't ATG either.

48 wickets in 8 tests with a 45 SR against the best side in the world is ATG. Sorry.

So Imran is more well rounded with better size samples.

 

[subshakerz]

Tell you what, I agree so long as you also agree that Imran's record away from home is underwhelming for an atg just like Lara in batting. Imran averages 26 and strikes at 60 away (excluding minnow SL). That includes matches in conditions you say are conducive to pace. They are fwiw.

Great that you agree.

As for Imran away, I have already made my points and I never go on raw average because that is committing the same issue that led us to overrate Ambrose in the first place.

 

[kyear2]

@subshakerz is actually winning me with his arguments of Imran over Ambrose.

I still rate Allan Donald higher with his record against/in Australia as the only major flaw in his record.

And that's totally fair.

Just btw, in which countries was Imran actually better than, or performed better than Ambrose?

And Ambrose didn't get to play in the SC, but how did Imran play in India?

And yeah, I have Imran, Lillee, Donald, Holding, Wasim really close. Lindwall and Garner not that far away either.

 

[Coronis]

I mean part of the reason I only have Ambrose 5th anyway is his record not being as well rounded.

Lillee’s record is also not as well rounded but its also worse than Ambrose’s… so I guess I already penalise both?

I mean otherwise I’d have Ambrose right up there at the top, right?

 

[subshakerz]

Just btw, in which countries was Imran actually better than, or performed better than Ambrose?

That's not even the argument we are arguing. Ambrose simply has an imbalanced record and was below standard outside WI, Eng and Aus.

 

[kyear2]

Lol lol here go with the bs not affored to anyone else like the fact that Ambrose was injured for much of the 90s. But I expected it. And how is Ambrose's home record not awesome??! And duh, Imran will take more wickets per match because he played with less competition. What is it with you and excluding certain aspects of players' records when YOU and only you pick and choose?? Smh.

My guy even with the caveat, still not close to Ambrose AND Imran was OK in the non home Asian country ie India.

Anyway, the voters have spoken. Ambrose has convincingly spanked Imran. Next!!!!

What gets me is that Miller beats Kallis by 3 votes and he said the forum have spoken and Miller is definitively rated higher.

The score here is definitively doubled up, but he has to prove to everyone how wrong they are.

 

[Coronis]

What gets me is that Miller beats Kallis by 3 votes and he said the forum have spoken and Miller is definitively rated higher.

The score here is definitively doubled up, but he has to prove to everyone how wrong they are.

iirc the forum changes its consensus about players quite often.

 

[subshakerz]

What gets me is that Miller beats Kallis by 3 votes and he said the forum have spoken and Miller is definitively rated higher.

The score here is definitively doubled up, but he has to prove to everyone how wrong they are.

Jeez get over the Miller vote man.