Imran Khan vs Curtley Ambrose

[Sliferxxxx]

Lara averaged 34 against India in 14 Tests in WI.
The best player of spin ever would most likely have averaged less if he played more against Ind in Ind.

Care to speculate how much he'd average with more tests in SL?

 

[DrWolverine]

Lara vs SL : 69 @ home in 4 Tests
Lara vs SL : 100 @ away in 4 Tests
Lara vs Ind : 34.9 @ home in 14 Tests
Lara vs Ind : 33 @ away in 3 Tests

For some reason Lara hasn’t done well against Ind
If he was poor against India in WI conditions, I think it is unlikely he would do well in Indian pitches

 

[Johan]

Lara vs SL : 69 @ home in 4 Tests
Lara vs SL : 100 @ away in 4 Tests
Lara vs Ind : 34.9 @ home in 14 Tests
Lara vs Ind : 33 @ away in 3 Tests

For some reason Lara hasn’t done well against Ind
If he was poor against India in WI conditions, I think it is unlikely he would do well in Indian pitches

I remember seeing him struggle with Nehra

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Lara vs SL : 69 @ home in 4 Tests
Lara vs SL : 100 @ away in 4 Tests
Lara vs Ind : 34.9 @ home in 14 Tests
Lara vs Ind : 33 @ away in 3 Tests

For some reason Lara hasn’t done well against Ind
If he was poor against India in WI conditions, I think it is unlikely he would do well in Indian pitches

I agree but just fwiw it's not always the case and I'll give you an example. Steve Waugh. He averaged 39 at home vs the WI but 70 in WI. Still i believe Lara wouldn't improve much in India only because for whatever reason. Had to be mental because Chanderpaul had absolutely no issues with India and he's no where close to Lara in ability.

 

[Coronis]

You can't be serious. Qadir was nothing outside Pakistan

ftfy

 

[Swamp Witch Hattie]

Marshall : 15 matches. 80 wickets.
Hadlee : 17 matches. 85 wickets.
McGrath : 34 matches. 137 wickets.
Ambrose : 12 matches. 36 wickets.
Steyn : 29 matches. 127 wickets.
Donald : 19 matches. 79 wickets.
Imran : 25 matches. 107 wickets.
Lillee : 5 matches. 6 wickets.
Garner : 8 matches. 36 wickets.
Holding : 10 matches. 37 wickets

WPM
Marshall : 5.3
Hadlee : 5
Garner : 4.5
Steyn : 4.37
Imran : 4.28
Donald : 4.15
McGrath : 4.029
Holding : 3.7
Ambrose : 3
Lillee : 1.2

I had doubts about these figures for Marshall because I knew he took just 35 wickets in 10 matches in Pakistan (he had a great average though), had a poor first tour of India (he was only 20 and it was a year before he joined Hampshire), and took just 9 wickets in 3 Tests in NZ (he was carrying an injury) so I knew there was just no way he was going to end up with a WPM of 5.3! I also knew that Hadlee took 68 wickets in the SC plus 15 in the WI so it should have been 83 instead of 85.

Marshall: 22 matches, 80 wickets





Hadlee: incl. SL: 17 matches, 83 wickets; excl. SL: 13 matches, 56 wickets





Imran: incl. SL: 25 matches, 107 wickets; excl. SL: 22 matches, 92 wickets





Marshall:

WPM = 3.64, WPI = 2.05, average = 24.07, SR = 52.1, 3 fifers, 0 tenfers

Hadlee:

Incl. SL (feasted in 1984, not so much in 1987):

WPM = 4.88, WPI = 2.86, average = 22.61, SR = 45.3, 5 fifers, 2 tenfers

Excl. SL:

WPM = 4.31, WPI = 2.55, average = 27.58, SR = 50.4, 3 fifers, 1 tenfer

Imran:

Incl. SL:

WPM = 4.28, WPI = 2.43, average = 25.10, SR = 54.4, 6 fifers, 1 tenfer

Excl. SL:

WPM = 4.18, WPI = 2.42, average = 26.26, SR = 55.7, 6 fifers, 1 tenfer

 

[Coronis]

He was picked just as batsmen and didn't bowl a single delivery. So why include that in his bowling record?

If he didn’t bowl a single delivery it wouldn’t affect his bowling record at all.

 

[subshakerz]

If he didn’t bowl a single delivery it wouldn’t affect his bowling record at all.

WPM

 

[Coronis]

WPM

A situation where WPI is more informative. Its odd RPI is often brought up but conversely WPM is used.

 

[subshakerz]

A situation where WPI is more informative. Its odd RPI is often brought up but conversely WPM is used.

I agree.

 

[kyear2]

Well they played longer and still averaged less. Simple measure but it's a starting position I usually need to be budged from with extra context and I don't think there's much to do that here. Steyn played in a more batting-friendly era but that didn't really apply in South Africa where he got to play 56% of his games. All very close though.

Yeah, but outside of SA it was tougher, so it's a little more understandable why his home / away record had the disparity that it did, unlike some other players.

But yeah, it is a little over played.

 

[Randomfan]

Waqar Younis Outside Pakistan : 211 Wickets @26.06 and Jasprit Bumrah Outside India : 158 Wickets @20.05. 54 Wickets more Required for Bumrah to surpass Waqar in the Overseas.

Are you guys seriously comparing Bumrah and Waqar away records? Both bowlers are in different class. Gap is massive against top teams home and away combined. Gap is massive away against all non-minnows as well.

Bumrah and Waqar - Away from home [ non-minnows, SL was minnow till mid 90s but you can keep it simple ]





Bumrah and Waqar against top 4 teams of their era ( home and away )

Bumrah: 39 tests - 171 wickets - Avg 21.2 - SR 45
Waqar: 36 tests - 117 wickets - Avg 28.8 - SR 50

 

[Randomfan]

Yeah but what's the point if they struggle to take 4WPM?

A better bowler will take wickets cheaply and quickly.

4 WPM with SR of 50 with lower avg >> 5 WPM with SR of 60 with a far higher avg

5 WPM does not make anyone better if it comes due to just bowling more. When you have SR of 60 then more wickets is coming due to bowling more and not due to being a better bowler. If you are a better bowler then you will take wickets cheaply and quickly.

 

[subshakerz]

A better bowler will take wickets cheaply and quickly.

4 WPM with SR of 50 with lower avg >> 5 WPM with SR of 60 with a far higher avg

5 WPM does not make anyone better if it comes due to just bowling more. When you have SR of 60 then more wickets is coming due to bowling more and not due to being a better bowler. If you are a better bowler then you will take wickets cheaply and quickly.

Yeah but in Ambrose case we are looking at a bowler who takes 3WPM@22/23 with a high SR outside of his favorite conditions of England/Aus/WI vs Imran taking 4 plus WPM@25/26 outside Eng/Aus/Pak.

Obviously 3WPM is just a lot worse.

Ambrose doesn't even take 4WPM at home and has an SR of 57.

 

[shortpitched713]

For bowling only:

Peak only, easily Imran

For overall career, I have to go Ambrose, as he had more consistency and longevity, even with the later half drop off. It still was a damn productive bowling period that even other greats could envy.

 

[DrWolverine]

Ambrose’s second half isn’t a big drop off.

Ambrose not playing much outside WI/Aus/Eng is the bigger issue with his record - 36 wickets in 12 Tests isn’t that impressive. I have go to agree with @subshakerz with this.

 

[Randomfan]

I'm not kyear2. Test bowling for me in terms of importance it goes average then strike rate, econ, then wpm. Wpm is very much a function of bowling competition, team strength etc.

If you are striking at 40 with less WPM than some one striking at 60 with higher WPM, How is second bowler better depsite having a higher WPM. Higher WPM is simply a fuction of bowling more in this example assuming toher thigns are equal.

WPM shows dependency of team on bowler and not class of bowler if SR is too high. If SR and Avg is in the same range, then yes WPM becomes important. otherwise 120/5 is not really better than 80/4.

 

[subshakerz]

If you are striking at 40 with less WPM than some one striking at 60 with higher WPM, How is second bowler better depsite having a higher WPM. Higher WPM is simply a fuction of bowling more in this example assuming toher thigns are equal.

WPM shows dependency of team on bowler and not class of bowler if SR is too high. If SR and Avg is in the same range, then yes WPM becomes important. otherwise 120/5 is not really better than 80/4.

@Randomfan let's forget about Imran for a second.

Regarding Ambrose: Would you agree that for him to have 90 percent of his wickets in Aus, Eng and home, and outside that only 36 wickets in 12 tests, is a legitimate issue with his record?

 

[DrWolverine]

@Randomfan
Regarding Ambrose: Would you agree that for him to have 90 percent of his wickets in Aus, Eng and home, and outside that only 36 wickets in 12 tests, is a legitimate issue with his record?

Yes

 

[Randomfan]

Yeah but in Ambrose case we are looking at a bowler who takes 3WPM@22/23 with a high SR outside of his favorite conditions of England/Aus/WI vs Imran taking 4 plus WPM@25/26 outside Eng/Aus/Pak.

Obviously 3WPM is just a lot worse.

Ambrose doesn't even take 4WPM at home and has an SR of 57.

What is SR of IK ? Did he strike far quicker than 57?

If not then it simply means he took more wickets in each match due to bowling more.