Sachin Tendulkar vs Jacques Kallis

[kyear2]

You should drop Viv for Hammond IMO.

Why?

My middle order is Sachin and Viv, the stability is provided by the former, the explosion is uniquely provided by the latter.

If Hammond is to come into my team his style and role is considerably closer to that of Sachin's, so a one for one swap make more sense there.

Additionally Richards is one of the three best 3rd slips I've seen, it doesn't make sense to strengthen the first slip position while weakening the 3rd. Not to add, when not in the cordon he's one of the greatest fielders of all time.

So no, if Hammond comes in it's for Sachin.

 

[kyear2]

He won't even though by his logic he should.

No, by your logic I should.

 

[kyear2]

He is in your ranking.


Yes because he is the best third bowling option in an ATG XI.


Need a reverser who doesn't spray it as third seamer. Imran fits naturally.

[/B]
Pick the best slippers out of the specialists who make the team.


No compromise. Imran is a perfect third pacer for an ATG XI.


Yeah except in how you promote Kallis over Hammond. Or Gilly over Knott. Etc.

I've explained countless times I rate the top 4 basically the same and list them based on the attacks they faced. If I were to be forced to list them, based on greatness or domination of their era the only surety is that Hobbs would be best after Bradman and heading the 4.

Is he though? Hadlee and Steyn are better overall and Wasim more suited for the role. Not saying he's not in the running, but definely not definitively the best.

Again he fits naturally because you want him to. He's more highly regarded here than anywhere and still he doesn't get a plurality of support for the spot. Most don't see the need of a "reverser" and just go Hadlee and when they do, Wasim is seen equally viable for the spot. The only reason Imran is preferred by those who do, is because he can bat. He's very much a personal preference pick for you the same way Barry is for me.

And I do that for the no. 8 as well. I pick which I think is the best attack and the no. 8 is the best batter of the group, with the options available, there's guaranteed to be a viable one. The difference though, is that I wouldn't select a team (as I've seen @DrWolverine do recently) without at least 3 above standard options for the cordon, one of three reasons Barry is a lock for me.

Again, he's in the running, perfect or undeniable he isn't. Very subjective.

First off, I rate Hammond just over Kallis, what you're talking about is for the literal "all rounder spot"
There are literally two all rounder spots for any team, it's just how one balances the roles for both. The wicketkeeper position has been an all round one since the game resumed after the war, the difference is that I still weigh keeping in that equation higher than most here and require a certain world class standard to even qualify.
Hammond I rate 10th, Kallis 14th, and Kallis the much more used and effective bowler. In the cordon it's closer, but yeah, Hammond definely ahead, so combined Hammond is ahead. But for a designated all rounder role, which the no. 6 position literally is, Kallis has the advantage.

 

[halba]

Tendulkar. Faced better attacks especially he started earlier when the attacks was tough in the early 90s. Kallis never had to face his own attack(which was #1 or #2 throughout both the careers)

 

[OverratedSanity]

Tendulkar is a perfectly good slip fielder, don't agree with the idea being implied that he's unviable there. He did it less often than Dravid and VVS because they were better and partly because Sachin was more mobile and had a great throwing arm (especially in the first half of his career). I genuinely don't think you lose much just putting him and Hammond/Kallis/Sobers in the slips in an ATG XI instead of Viv if you think he's a significantly better batsman than Viv (which I think @Prince EWS and @Coronis do).

Ultimately, this is why I think @kyear2 misrepresents my opinion on this entire dumb slip fielders in ATG XI selection thing. My actual opinion is not that slip fielding isn't important, it very obviously is. Rather, that there is huge diminishing value the better the slip fielder is. Going from incopetent to competent is a huge jump in value for a slip fielder, going from competent to elite is going to affect results less. Imo, as long as the slips are competent, it's more than good enough. Wanting the elite of the elite to be in your slip cordon at any perceived sacrifice of batting is a waste.

 

[subshakerz]

My actual opinion is not that slip fielding isn't important, it very obviously is. Rather, that there is huge diminishing value the better the slip fielder is. Going from incopetent to competent is a huge jump in value from one slip fielder, going from competent to elite is going to affect results less. Imo, as long as the slips are competent, it's more than good enough.

Yes you nailed it and I have tried to explain this to him as well. Elite slips are not a prerequisite for a team, they are an added bonus.

Of course, he considers Smith to be an elite slipper, so not exactly sure which standard he is following.

 

[subshakerz]

I've explained countless times I rate the top 4 basically the same and list them based on the attacks they faced. If I were to be forced to list them, based on greatness or domination of their era the only surety is that Hobbs would be best after Bradman and heading the 4.

So you place Hobbs ahead of Tendulkar? Got it.

Is he though? Hadlee and Steyn are better overall and Wasim more suited for the role. Not saying he's not in the running, but definely not definitively the best.

Again he fits naturally because you want him to. He's more highly regarded here than anywhere and still he doesn't get a plurality of support for the spot. Most don't see the need of a "reverser" and just go Hadlee and when they do, Wasim is seen equally viable for the spot. The only reason Imran is preferred by those who do, is because he can bat. He's very much a personal preference pick for you the same way Barry is for me.

Again I am giving my reasoning. Hadlee gives more of the same as McGrath. Steyn will definitely spray it as third seamer. Wasim is a pretty decent option, but I rate Imran ahead as a destructive reverser and bowler overall even if Wasim was more skilled.

The difference though, is that I wouldn't select a team (as I've seen @DrWolverine do recently) without at least 3 above standard options for the cordon, one of three reasons Barry is a lock for me.

Which specialists would you drop based on slips?

But for a designated all rounder role, which the no. 6 position literally is, Kallis has the advantage.

Yeah so you do promote Kallis for solely his 5th bowling over Hammond, who you admit is a better slipper, yet follow the opposite logic to not have Miller in your ATG Aus side in favor of Simpson as a fifth bowler.

 

[honestbharani]

Tendulkar is a perfectly good slip fielder, don't agree with the idea being implied that he's unviable there. He did it less often than Dravid and VVS because they were better and partly because Sachin was more mobile and had a great throwing arm (especially in the first half of his career). I genuinely don't think you lose much just putting him and Hammond/Kallis/Sobers in the slips in an ATG XI instead of Viv if you think he's a significantly better batsman than Viv (which I think @Prince EWS and @Coronis do).

Ultimately, this is why I think @kyear2 misrepresents my opinion on this entire dumb slip fielders in ATG XI selection thing. My actual opinion is not that slip fielding isn't important, it very obviously is. Rather, that there is huge diminishing value the better the slip fielder is. Going from incopetent to competent is a huge jump in value for a slip fielder, going from competent to elite is going to affect results less. Imo, as long as the slips are competent, it's more than good enough. Wanting the elite of the elite to be in your slip cordon at any perceived sacrifice of batting is a waste.

Sachin was between serviceable to good. Some of the other great bats in that tier next to Bradman were probably better slip fielders though.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Sachin was between serviceable to good. Some of the other great bats in that tier next to Bradman were probably better slip fielders though.

Regarding Sachin's catching (not just slip but overall), my father always said you don't generally expect him to grab quarter chances like Ponting or Kallis, but he was a very safe catcher.

 

[kyear2]

You didn't respond to either of the two points.

This is why it's so frustrating conversing with you.

At least others we can disagree but they engage with the argument.

Can it be useful, yes. Crazy to think no.

You believe Imran is obvious because he's the best bowling option and the best batsman. What if one doesn't believe the former.

In any event, in a lineup with literally the best bats of all time and Gilchrist at 7, two points.

1. Do they need to focus on batting with your bowlers as well.

2. If that batting lineup is struggling, how large an impact is Imran going to consistently make? Yeah he might average 22 ish, but the other guys might be averaging what, 15?

With regards to Sobers and needing the tail to wag, in my lineup there's Gilchrist, Wasim, Marshall and Warne. They are all more than competent with the willow in their hands.

Your 2nd argument is this is genuine rest with his inconsistency. You say I prefer Simpson over Miller, yes, becuse with the batting all rounders, the primary job is batting, and Simpson's and Border's batting is way better than Miller's. Don't know how that's devaluating anything.
I'm also happy with Warne or Cummins at 8. Don't get your point tbh. Wouldn't bat Miller at 8 either, they're better bowling options.

Is that engaging enough?

 

[subshakerz]

In any event, in a lineup with literally the best bats of all time and Gilchrist at 7, two points.

1. Do they need to focus on batting with your bowlers as well.

2. If that batting lineup is struggling, how large an impact is Imran going to consistently make? Yeah he might average 22 ish, but the other guys might be averaging what, 15?

No, I am assuming at least a 10 point drop in average against an ATG bowling lineup. Imran mid-20s (roughly where he was against WI in his day) the others far lower.

With regards to Sobers and needing the tail to wag, in my lineup there's Gilchrist, Wasim, Marshall and Warne. They are all more than competent with the willow in their hands.

No they aren't against an ATG bowling attack, they will hardly average anything to make an impact.

Your 2nd argument is this is genuine rest with his inconsistency. You say I prefer Simpson over Miller, yes, becuse with the batting all rounders, the primary job is batting, and Simpson's and Border's batting is way better than Miller's. Don't know how that's devaluating anything.
I'm also happy with Warne or Cummins at 8. Don't get your point tbh. Wouldn't bat Miller at 8 either, they're better bowling options.

You can't push for Simpson over Miller by suggesting 5th bowling is not that critical and then pick Kallis over Hammond.

 

[shortpitched713]

I'm not sure why some folks seem to think it crazy to go for Kallis over Tendulkar here.

Obviously, a big part comes down to how big a difference there is, if any, in their batting with that being their primary skill set.

However, that difference should very clearly be possible to make up in terms of value, as an all-rounder. And I don't even rate Kallis quite as high as others in the all-rounder rankings (have him just behind Botham and Hadlee, former of which is not really much of a value pick).

For a pace batting all-rounder for the overwhelming majority of career, Kallis had absolute monster career longevity, so I can't even give Tendulkar that much of an advantage for longevity either like I could in most batting only comparisons (Tendulkar can come out ahead over anyone not named Bradman, depending how you rate longevity).

The list of great all-rounders in the pantheon of Test cricket greats is certainly top heavy, as can be shown in the recent polling, and declining interest after top 20-25 or so. However, the top 7 all-rounders I think can hang in terms of greatness with top 7 in either specialist discipline (barring Bradman), easily in my mind. And Kallis and Tendulkar fall squarely in both of those brackets.