Wasim Akram vs Dennis Lillee

[sayon basak]

 

[bagapath]

Wasim has particular reasons for his low WPM.

Longer career and poorer fielding.

Same team had Waqar who averaged 4.5 wpm
Imran 4.1
Even Saqlain averaged 4+Wpm
They didn’t change the fielders for each bowler
Poor fielding is a poor excuse

other fast bowlers have taken more wits at a better wpm avg
Not convinced by length of career either

 

[bagapath]

What's the point of comparing his stats with McGrath or Marshall, when they're clearly seen as better bowlers than Akram?

Lillee is also better than Akram for the same reason

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Same team had Waqar who averaged 4.5 wpm
Imran 4.1
Even Saqlain averaged 4+Wpm
They didn’t change the fielders for each bowler
Poor fielding is a poor excuse

other fast bowlers have taken more wits at a better wpm avg
Not convinced by length of career either

All wrong.

Imran played in a different team and there was no big competition for wickets, all averaged less than 4wpm except Imran.

Waqar WPM is 4.28 not 4.5

Waqar took 373 wickets in 87 Matches after playing 12 years.

Wasim too took his first 373 wickets in exact 87 matches. But in 15 years career span and in just 153 innings (one innings less than Waqar.)

 

[Van_Sri]

Wasim Akram : 255 Wickets @24.61 outside Pakistan this is an important record in favour of Wasim. Dennis Lillee : 124 Wickets @24.28 outside Australia . One of the reason for Wasim to have low Wicket per match compared to Lillee is that he used to wait for the ball to become old and used to take wickets once the ball was reverse swinging, unlike Dennis Lillee who was a new ball bowler. So it’s like comparing Apples and Oranges as these 2 Bowlers serve different purpose for a Team. Taking one Criteria to judge the greatness of a bowler doesn’t show the real picture. Conclusion : New Ball Give it to Lillee and Old Ball give it to Wasim.@subshakerz

 

[Qlder]

Akram from his peak 90-97 was better than Lillee at any time in his career. But overall career wise its Lillee..

I think the difference between stats makes it hard to put Wasim ahead even though he was one of my favorites.

Lillee has better WPM, strikerate, fifers/tenfers, plus no minnows. Wasim pretty much underachieved a bit in his career, and I say this as a fan.

Just thought I'd re-post these wise words from 3 years ago (as nothing has changed)

 

[bagapath]

All wrong.

Imran played in a different team and there was no big competition for wickets, all averaged less than 4wpm except Imran.

Waqar WPM is 4.28 not 4.5

Waqar took 373 wickets in 87 Matches after playing 12 years.

Wasim too took his first 373 wickets in exact 87 matches. But in 15 years career span and in just 153 innings (one innings less than Waqar.)

Relax dude. I am responding to the claim that Wasim lost out on wickets because of poor fielding

In matches featuring Wasim Akram

Player Span Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10 WPM
Wasim Akram (PAK) 1985-2002 104 181 3771.1 871 9779 414 7/119 11/110 23.62 2.59 54.6 25 5 3.98
Waqar Younis (PAK) 1989-2002 61 110 1940.3 356 6351 277 7/86 11/119 22.92 3.27 42.0 17 3 4.54
Imran Khan (PAK) 1985-1992 34 48 1006.2 219 2666 115 7/40 11/121 23.18 2.64 52.5 6 2 3.38
Saqlain Mushtaq (PAK) 1995-2002 26 47 1238.2 335 3048 111 8/164 10/187 27.45 2.46 66.9 9 2 4.27


In the same games featuring Wasim, Waqar took 4.54 wkt/ m and Saqlain claimed 4.27 wkt/ match. Wasim managed to take 3.98 WPM
Imran took 3.38 in these games. his overall career haul of 4.10 WPM was also for Pakistan not renowned for their slip catching. He bowled far less overs in this phase overlapping with Wasim Akram/ and has an inferior WPM. But he was still striking better than Wasim that is obvious from his superior SR

Saying Wasim Akram lost out on extra wickets because of shoddy fielding is a lazy claim because Waqar and Saqlain took more wickets than him in the same tests / and Imran took more wickets per test in his career for Pakistan, which also overlapped with Wasim's.

 

[bagapath]

Wasim Akram : 255 Wickets @24.61 outside Pakistan this is an important record in favour of Wasim. Dennis Lillee : 124 Wickets @24.28 outside Australia . One of the reason for Wasim to have low Wicket per match compared to Lillee is that he used to wait for the ball to become old and used to take wickets once the ball was reverse swinging, unlike Dennis Lillee who was a new ball bowler. So it’s like comparing Apples and Oranges as these 2 Bowlers serve different purpose for a Team. Taking one Criteria to judge the greatness of a bowler doesn’t show the real picture. Conclusion : New Ball Give it to Lillee and Old Ball give it to Wasim.@subshakerz

when he retired, Wasim Akram had bowled more with the new ball than any other bowler in history barring Kapil and Walsh. The number of innings he opened the bowling was humongous. The fact that he was more successful against the tai lenders makes one remember him as a reverse swing specialist. But he was an opening bowler. I dont understand how that could be a reason for his low Wpm, though. For example, Lindwall always opened the bowling and yet he averaged 3.5 WPM.

Lillee and Hadlee averaged 5 WPM
Marshall and McGrath and Trueman and Steyn averaged 4.5+ WPM

They are, rightfully, ranked above all the fast bowlers of the past 100 years.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Relax dude. I am responding to the claim that Wasim lost out on wickets because of poor fielding

In matches featuring Wasim Akram

Player Span Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10 WPM
Wasim Akram (PAK) 1985-2002 104 181 3771.1 871 9779 414 7/119 11/110 23.62 2.59 54.6 25 5 3.98
Waqar Younis (PAK) 1989-2002 61 110 1940.3 356 6351 277 7/86 11/119 22.92 3.27 42.0 17 3 4.54
Imran Khan (PAK) 1985-1992 34 48 1006.2 219 2666 115 7/40 11/121 23.18 2.64 52.5 6 2 3.38
Saqlain Mushtaq (PAK) 1995-2002 26 47 1238.2 335 3048 111 8/164 10/187 27.45 2.46 66.9 9 2 4.27


In the same games featuring Wasim, Waqar took 4.54 wkt/ m and Saqlain claimed 4.27 wkt/ match. Wasim managed to take 3.98 WPM
Imran took 3.38 in these games. his overall career haul of 4.10 WPM was also for Pakistan not renowned for their slip catching. He bowled far less overs in this phase overlapping with Wasim Akram/ and has an inferior WPM. But he was still striking better than Wasim that is obvious from his superior SR

Saying Wasim Akram lost out on extra wickets because of shoddy fielding is a lazy claim because Waqar and Saqlain took more wickets than him in the same tests / and Imran took more wickets per test in his career for Pakistan, which also overlapped with Wasim's.

In matches both Wasim and Waqar played, Wasim took 5 more wickets......

 

[Qlder]

Another sort of down mark for Wasim was that he wasnt the most destructive bowler out there. Rarely threatened to run through the opposition lineup. Only took 1 expensive 7-fer in a long career.

This is gold. Totally opposite of Lillee

 

[Van_Sri]

when he retired, Wasim Akram had bowled more with the new ball than any other bowler in history barring Kapil and Walsh. The number of innings he opened the bowling was humongous. The fact that he was more successful against the tai lenders makes one remember him as a reverse swing specialist. But he was an opening bowler. I dont understand how that could be a reason for his low Wpm, though. For example, Lindwall always opened the bowling and yet he averaged 3.5 WPM.

Lillee and Hadlee averaged 5 WPM
Marshall and McGrath and Trueman and Steyn averaged 4.5+ WPM

They are, rightfully, ranked above all the fast bowlers of the past 100 years.

Listen to this as Wasim clearly explains that he was not so good New Ball Bowler and used to wait for the Ball to get Reverse Swing. I agree he used to open the Bowling but he himself admits he was not good at it untill 1993/94. In an all time XI he can be a good no 3 bowler and a handy batsmen at No 8. Lillee or Hadlee is good for opening the innings. As a Pure Test Match Opening New Ball Bowler - Lillee is definitely superior to Wasim. But once the ball gets little old you need a Wasim to reverse swing the ball to get wickets and his batting helps too coming at No 8. But remember that he had more difficulty than Lillee as he bowled on various Sub Continent Pitches unlike Lillee and also in other parts of the world. Wasim took more than double the number of wickets compared to Lillee as a Visitor at same bowling average to that of Lillee.

 

[bagapath]

Saying Wasim Akram was better with the old ball is fair. I didnt want the statement to imply that he was not a new ball bowler. He was a new ball bowler. But he did better with the older ball should be the point. What a magician he was at any point in the game anyways! Full of style, vigour and enthusiasm. Wasim was a pleasure to watch at any point;

 

[bagapath]

A bowling attack comprising of Lillee, Marshall and Wasim would be so much fun to watch under any conditions. Imran and Hadlee can be the two all rounders making it a full fledged 5 man pace attack for the 25 years from 1970 to 1994.
Too bad Botham, Holding, Garner, Ambrose, Bedi, Chandra etc cannot come in.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Q

Relax dude. I am responding to the claim that Wasim lost out on wickets because of poor fielding

In matches featuring Wasim Akram

Player Span Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10 WPM
Wasim Akram (PAK) 1985-2002 104 181 3771.1 871 9779 414 7/119 11/110 23.62 2.59 54.6 25 5 3.98
Waqar Younis (PAK) 1989-2002 61 110 1940.3 356 6351 277 7/86 11/119 22.92 3.27 42.0 17 3 4.54
Imran Khan (PAK) 1985-1992 34 48 1006.2 219 2666 115 7/40 11/121 23.18 2.64 52.5 6 2 3.38
Saqlain Mushtaq (PAK) 1995-2002 26 47 1238.2 335 3048 111 8/164 10/187 27.45 2.46 66.9 9 2 4.27


In the same games featuring Wasim, Waqar took 4.54 wkt/ m and Saqlain claimed 4.27 wkt/ match. Wasim managed to take 3.98 WPM
Imran took 3.38 in these games. his overall career haul of 4.10 WPM was also for Pakistan not renowned for their slip catching. He bowled far less overs in this phase overlapping with Wasim Akram/ and has an inferior WPM. But he was still striking better than Wasim that is obvious from his superior SR

Saying Wasim Akram lost out on extra wickets because of shoddy fielding is a lazy claim because Waqar and Saqlain took more wickets than him in the same tests / and Imran took more wickets per test in his career for Pakistan, which also overlapped with Wasim's.

Wrong again,
In the games Waqar and Wasim played together, Akram averaged 4.63 WPM

Imran - initial phase of Akram career
Saqlain - Decline phase of Akram career

Akram and Marshall's stats are identical if Akram had retired after 13 years of career.

 

[sayon basak]

Akram is not Ambrose
Akra


Wrong again,
In the games Waqar and Wasim played together, Akram averaged 4.63 WPM

Imran - initial phase of Akram career
Saqlain - Decline phase of Akram career

Akram and Marshall's stats are identical if Akram had retired after 13 years of career.

He means all the matches where Amram was involved.

 

[bagapath]

He means all the matches where Amram was involved.

yup

It is not possible that the Pakistani fielders upped their standards when Akram and Waqar bowled together giving Akram good WPM numbers while playing in combo and started dropping catches when Akram played without Waqar making his wickets per test average drop significantly. And they could not have caught Imran's and Saqlain's catches in the beginning and end phases of Akram's career, better than for Akram's own bowling in those phases to kill Akram's overall WPM

Basically, blaming Pakistan's poor fielding as the reason for Akram's low WPM is downright stupid.

 

[Johan]

Might be meaningless but 27% of Lillee's wickets are the tail while that's 35% for Akram, that might say something.

 

[bagapath]

Akram and Marshall's stats are identical if Akram had retired after 13 years of career.

Not true.

Akram had a stellar career. His stats would have looked terrific even after 13 years.

81

141

3066.0

710

7928

346

7/119

11/160

22.91

2.58

53.1

21

4

But Marshall had significantly better numbers. more wickets/ better WPM/ better average

Akram never reached 4.5 WPM range
Leave alone the exalted 5 WPM plane that belongs to Lillee and Hadlee

 

[Coronis]

Another sort of down mark for Wasim was that he wasnt the most destructive bowler out there. Rarely threatened to run through the opposition lineup. Only took 1 expensive 7-fer in a long career.

Still better than that FRAUD Bumrah.

Hasn’t even taken a 7’fer yet.

 

[peterhrt]

Might be meaningless but 27% of Lillee's wickets are the tail while that's 35% for Akram, that might say something.

Rod Marsh reckoned Lillee bowled too short to the tail.

At the beginning of their careers the reputations of both bowlers suffered from what would now be considered old-fashioned thinking. Reverse swing was associated with illegal ball tampering. In the 1970s persistent short-pitched bowling was frowned upon. Bradman made the following comments after the 1974-75 series:

Lillee and Thomson possessed remarkable physique, strength and stamina, and ability and (may I add within the confines of diplomacy) a willingness to exploit the short-pitched ball to an extent which would have unnerved any side. For deep understanding of the subtleties of the bowling art, the use of swing, cut, change of pace, etc., Lindwall and Miller would be far more knowledgeable.