Sachin Tendulkar vs Jacques Kallis

[ankitj]

That was a great effort by @ankitj.

Seems like Kallis and Sobers had pretty similar values of wickets and both took those wickets at a similar average.

But still think Kallis lacked the workload with the ball, and I'd still place Sobers and Imran ahead of him as they're workload is superior.

This I think had to do with other bowlers in the team to a significant extent.

 

[subshakerz]

But still think Kallis lacked the workload with the ball, and I'd still place Sobers and Imran ahead of him as they're workload is superior.

Yes. He was a pretty good pacer when on song but as Kimber pointed out, a more reluctant bowler to take up the secondary role as consistently as Sobers and Imran.

Even in his early career bowling peak he wasnt bowling significantly more overs per game, around 22, than his mid phase when his batting blossomed.

 

[sayon basak]

This I think had to do with other bowlers in the team to a significant extent.

Hey can you do the same thing with batters?

Namely, "How valuable is that run"?

 

[Bolo.]

All this discussion on how many runs = 1 wkt, it is and always has been 20 as a rule of thumb

There's a reason bowlers celebrate a 5fer same as bats celebrate a hundred. Also, look how many bowlers average 4 wpm and batsmen averaging 80 runs per match gives a good criteria for finding the elite in each.

Then for the Super elite you have 5 wpm and 100 rpm, that would include Lillee, Hadlee & Murali and Bradman (Headley 99.55 and G. Pollock 98.09 oh so close)

You mentioned 20 in another thread and got a response saying 30 was the number.

5s/100s is basically an attachment to notable numbers. They aren't actually equivalent. 5 wickets is at least 50% of bowling wickets in a completed innings. IDK what the average total runs for a completed innings are, but north of 300.

 

[Qlder]

You mentioned 20 in another thread and got a response saying 30 was the number.

5s/100s is basically an attachment to notable numbers. They aren't actually equivalent. 5 wickets is at least 50% of bowling wickets in a completed innings. IDK what the average total runs for a completed innings are, but north of 300.

You seem to be wanting what the batting average is for all wkts taken (31.93) which is nothing like what a wkt/run is worth in a match.

I've given examples of where great batsman average 80 runs per match and great bowlers average 4 wpm. 20 runs works, if it was 30 then batsmen would need to average 120-150 runs per match and only Bradman does that (134). No other bat averages 100 runs per match

 

[ankitj]

Hey can you do the same thing with batters?

Namely, "How valuable is that run"?

It won't be possible because we don't have data on runs scored against each bowler. Nor will it be useful because it's perfectly fine to see off a good bowler and score of lesser bowlers (cricket is a team game at the end of the day). It would enough to rate innings by strength of opposition bowling and then add up. But needs lot more work than what I did for bowlers.

 

[sayon basak]

You seem to be wanting what the batting average is for all wkts taken (31.93) which is nothing like what a wkt/run is worth in a match.

I've given examples of where great batsman average 80 runs per match and great bowlers average 4 wpm. 20 runs works, if it was 30 then batsmen would need to average 120-150 runs per match and only Bradman does that (134). No other bat averages 100 runs per match

Could you provide the number of bowlers taking 4 WPM and number of batters taking 80 RPM? Then it'll be easier to see if the numbers are comparable or not.

 

[Bolo.]

This I think had to do with other bowlers in the team to a significant extent.

Yes, but workload management was a bigger factor. He bowled more balls in tests than Imran did (in a nominally shorter career). Plus fielded slips more and batted more than just about anyone else in history. It's understandable.

 

[sayon basak]

You mentioned 20 in another thread and got a response saying 30 was the number.

5s/100s is basically an attachment to notable numbers. They aren't actually equivalent. 5 wickets is at least 50% of bowling wickets in a completed innings. IDK what the average total runs for a completed innings are, but north of 300.

Don't think 30 is the answer. If 1 wicket were equal to 30 runs, then that'd lead to some contradictions.
There are many bowlers with 5 WPM. If 1 wicket=30 runs, then their workload would be equal to 150 RPM, and we have zero batters with that trait.

 

[subshakerz]

Don't think 30 is the answer. If 1 wicket were equal to 30 runs, then that'd lead to some contradictions.
There are many bowlers with 5 WPM. If 1 wicket=30 runs, then their workload would be equal to 150 RPM, and we have zero batters with that trait.

Bradman has a RPI of 87 for reference.

 

[subshakerz]

Kallis bowling struck me as equivalent overall to a Hadlee type bat.

 

[sayon basak]

Bradman has a RPI of 87 for reference.

Yeah, and if 1 wicket was equivalent to 30 runs, Bradman's output would be 2.9 WPM, which is much worse than Muralitharan.

If we use 1 wicket=20 runs, it'd be equivalent to 4.35 WPM, which seems right to me.

 

[sayon basak]

Kallis bowling struck me as equivalent overall to a Hadlee type bat.

Hadlee's RPM is 23.313, so that'd be equivalent to almost 1.2 WPM, which is Similar to Kallis' 1.07 WPM.

 

[Qlder]

Could you provide the number of bowlers taking 4 WPM and number of batters taking 80 RPM? Then it'll be easier to see if the numbers are comparable or not.

Here's an example of some Australians runs and wkts per match since the 1980's

Smith - 87.71
Hayden - 83.74
G. Chappell - 81.72
Ponting - 79.63
Hussey - 78.92
Warner - 78.44

Lillee - 5.08
Warne - 4.88
McGrath - 4.54
Cummins - 4.39
Johnson - 4.29
McDermott - 4.10

 

[centurymaker]

RPM is not a good measure as matches used to progress a lot slower in the past so half the time you'd not bat the 2nd time in a match.

 

[sayon basak]

Here's an example of 5 Australians runs and wkts per match since the 1990's

Smith - 87.71
Hayden - 83.74
Ponting - 79.63
Hussey - 78.92
Warner - 78.44

Warne - 4.88
McGrath - 4.54
Cummins - 4.39
Johnson - 4.29
McDermott - 4.10

So,
(87.71+83.74+79.63+78.92+78.44)/(4.88+4.54+4.39+4.29+4.1)=18.4; pretty consistent with 1 wicket=18.89 runs it seems.

 

[subshakerz]

RPM is not a good measure as matches used to progress a lot slower in the past so half the time you'd not bat the 2nd time in a match.

It inherently disadvantages those in lower middle order.

 

[sayon basak]

RPM is not a good measure as matches used to progress a lot slower in the past so half the time you'd not bat the 2nd time in a match.

That's why we're counting RPI instead of RPM.

And TBH RPI works better than Average in some cases, for example: Shiv's RPI is 42.38 and Graeme Smith's RPI is 45.2. (@capt_Luffy should take a note here)

 

[subshakerz]

That's why we're counting RPI instead of RPM.

And TBH RPI works better than Average in some cases, for example: Shiv's RPI is 42.38 and Graeme Smith's RPI is 45.2. (@capt_Luffy should take a note here)

What a drop-down for Shiv.

 

[sayon basak]

What a drop-down for Shiv.

And TBH, he deserves it. Anybody who gives the strike to the tail-enders just to attain a not out to boost his average deserves to be humiliated.