Jacques Kallis vs Glenn Mcgrath

[kyear2]

Kallis overall was a fifth seamer, not a fourth.

He was not.

He bowled 2nd change way more often than 3rd. In fact he bowled as the 3rd bowler more often than he was the 5th. So in order he bowled most as the 4th, 3rd then 5th option.

You kept making the comp to Imran saying he was a top 6 batsman, but in reality he batted 7th the vast majority of the time, and he batted 8th more often than he batted 6th. And even then, most of the innings batting 7th was at the back end of his career.

So yeah, Kallis was the 4th option more often than Imran was in the top order.

Wild huh?

 

[DrWolverine]

He bowled 2nd change way more often than 3rd.

In fact he bowled as the 3rd bowler more often than he was the 5th.

So in order he bowled most as the 4th, 3rd then 5th option.

Yes

 

[capt_Luffy]

Yes

View attachment 44157

I mean, it's good and all, but there were specialist spinners I believe too. Like if Stokes comes to bowl before Bashir, is Bashir the 5th bowler and Stokes 4th??

 

[sayon basak]

I mean, it's good and all, but there were specialist spinners I believe too. Like if Stokes comes to bowl before Bashir, is Bashir the 5th bowler and Stokes 4th??

Might be bit off topic, but I feel like Stokes is a (way) more skillful bowler than Bashir.

And yeah, spinners generally bowl after the pacers, so just going just off the bowling position is not a good way of looking at it.

 

[kyear2]

If you looked at every Test lineup in history - real lineups, not ATG stuff we do on CW - and asked yourself whether Kallis or McGrath would make more of a difference to them in terms of winning more series, I think it'd be close, but I think it'd be Kallis.

Excellent point.

And I love players like Kallis probably more than you do. An ATG bat, an ATG slip and a quality 4th bowling option is more than useful.

So I ask, what would a Kallis have done for India in the last series, and I think he likely would have won or for them.

But without Bumrah, it's all moot.

I take the bowler that I think is the 2nd best ever to do it, because they are the guys who win games.

Plus McGrath is just a bit better a bowler than Kallis is a batsman.

Think only my top 6 players for sure I'll take over Kallis though. 7 and 8 definely being toss ups.

 

[DrWolverine]

Test matches are designed in such a way that it is ultimately the bowlers that win the matches and that’s why in my ATG team I have four pacers.

 

[kyear2]

good post.

i always enjoy reading these perspectives from people who lived it as a fan, rather than the story presented well after the fact by people who weren't there or want to write their own version.

trundler's opinion that kallis isn't an allrounder is ridiculous but the 'kallis secretly killed the team' meme has been pushed for years now and probably would be less of a narrative if we had more south african posters on the forum. it always entertains me watching overseas randoms trying to tell the fans of a team that actually they shouldn't want this really good player in their team because he secretly sucks and kallis' batting (and sobers bowling at one point though that is a historical argument) are the poster boys for that stuff.

Superbly said and laid out. And all of that doesn't even factor in he's one of the greatest slips ever, who was invaluable at 2nd for the multitude of great pacers they had, especially Steyn. He was automatic behind there. An elite 2nd slip in Aus, SA, WI, Eng or NZ is worth their weight in gold.

And not to add that SA had the most difficult playing conditions even during the 2000's, so he didn't have the home advantages that many if the others had.

As a bowler, invaluable and utilized ideally to lengthen his career as much as possible.

 

[subshakerz]

He was not.

He bowled 2nd change way more often than 3rd. In fact he bowled as the 3rd bowler more often than he was the 5th. So in order he bowled most as the 4th, 3rd then 5th option.

You kept making the comp to Imran saying he was a top 6 batsman, but in reality he batted 7th the vast majority of the time, and he batted 8th more often than he batted 6th. And even then, most of the innings batting 7th was at the back end of his career.

So yeah, Kallis was the 4th option more often than Imran was in the top order.

Wild huh?

Nah Kallis was a 3/4th bowler for early career and a 5/6th bowler later career.

Imran I always acknowledged is a 6/7 borderline specialist bat.

 

[subshakerz]

McGrath is the second greatest bowler of all-time.

To displace him from the side you would need a top tier specialist with secondary skill. Kallis is not top tier. His batting is simply not good enough to have his bowling matter.

The idea that Kallis, the least dominant scoring bat of his era, makes more of a difference in winning a series than McGrath is just a fantasy.

A fifth bowler is not deciding a series folks.

 

[Johan]

A cricketer like Kallis is more rare to find.

In the history of sport, there have been two great batting all rounders - Sobers and Kallis.

Hammond

 

[kyear2]

Kallis was a batsman who bowled. WPM away from home outside Ban/Zim is near Hammond level contribution.

Not saying he was, but what's wrong with Hammond level contribution, where you could give more if required.

Hammond and Kallis so very similar and incredibly valuable.

Hammond the slightly better bat, Kallis more volume as a bowler and Hammond again slightly the better slip.

 

[DrWolverine]

83 wickets in 85 Tests and that too in 1930s. Nah

 

[kyear2]

Bradman is so ahead of Tendulkar it's not a meaningful comparison.

Tendulkar is not clearly ahead of Sobers or Smith even.

Hadlee then is around his level as a bowler. Once you factor in him being a capable lower order bat he should be ahead tho I agree it seems odd.

Interesting.

 

[Johan]

83 wickets in 85 Tests and that too in 1930s. Nah

look at his pre war record

after war he couldn't bowl

 

[DrWolverine]

81 wickets in 71 Tests
Nah

 

[kyear2]

Test matches are designed in such a way that it is ultimately the bowlers that win the matches and that’s why in my ATG team I have four pacers.

That doesn't mean you play a batsman short, you still lose.

 

[DrWolverine]

That doesn't mean you play a batsman short, you still lose.

I have five batsmen(including Don) and Gilly.
Two bowlers who can bat(avg of 35 & 25).
It is more than enough to win.

 

[sayon basak]

81 wickets in 71 Tests
Nah

He could have been a better bowler if he pushed himself a bit more. He definitely was capable of bowling at good pace.

 

[sayon basak]

I have five batsmen(including Don) and Gilly.
Two bowlers who can bat(avg of 35 & 25).
It is more than enough to win.

Could you post your team?

 

[DrWolverine]

He could have been a better bowler if he pushed himself a bit more. He definitely was capable of bowling at good pace.

But he wasn’t