Virat Kohli vs Graham Gooch

[Johan]

Virat also had a pretty decent 2023 (lol I'm not saying current Kohli is better, just tryna say that Gooch was an average batter for most of his career; and Kohli's 2016-2019 version was way better than any version of Gooch)

Btw will Kohli play beyond the ENG series? That'd be cool. We could have both of them average the same (Gooch could even go higher, who knows?)

I don't think Virat 2016-19 was too much better than Gooch 1990-early 1994 (first test in New Zealand) where he was just ridiculous and had the "fine, I'll do it myself, dumb****s" attitude.

pretty sure I discussed this with @capt_Luffy but I think Virat's 2023 was exaggerated, he was given a truly horrid track worse than the dreaded MCG pitch where he made a big 180 but was quiet for the rest of the year, there was iirc another flat draw pitch in Windies where he made a hundred, but by far the best work 2020-24 Kohli has done has been his work in South Africa, that is actually great.

it's possible, Ravi Shastri who is the owner of sporting beyond, a public reputation agency for Kohli more or less, implied that Kohli will play for 3 or 4 more years, Kohli has enough non-performing players like Sharma, Gill and Rahul to diverge attention toward whenever the team is failing, scapegoating someone else, so it's possible he tries to play until the next WTC cycle's finale.

 

[Johan]

@Johan And btw, where do you rank Gooch in your top batters' list? Top 50? Even higher?

I'm not that good with long lists, but in my English batters list Gooch came at 10, he constantly beats out guys like Cook, Pietersen, Amla, Gower and so forth for me so might make it to my top 50 Yeah.

 

[sayon basak]

it's possible, Ravi Shastri who is the owner of sporting beyond, a public reputation agency for Kohli more or less, implied that Kohli will play for 3 or 4 more years, Kohli has enough non-performing players like Sharma, Gill and Rahul to diverge attention toward whenever the team is failing, scapegoating someone else, so it's possible he tries to play until the next WTC cycle's finale.

He may end up averaging sub 40.

 

[sayon basak]

I'm not that good with long lists, but in my English batters list Gooch came at 10, he constantly beats out guys like Cook, Pietersen, Amla, Gower and so forth for me so might make it to my top 50 Yeah.

 

[sayon basak]

@Johan but you rate Cowdrey ahead of Gooch?

And that'd mean you also rate Cook below Cowdrey. I thought you were a Cook fan.

 

[BazBall21]

If Kohli goes to England, I can see Greenidge closing the gap on him in here. And Gordon himself had a very long career so I don't necessarily think Kohli failing in England this year (technically still hypothetical) shouldn't be accounted for in the Greenidge comparison.

 

[BazBall21]

Cowdrey v Gooch is one of those where I could go either way. Went Cowdrey this time.

 

[Johan]

@Johan but you rate Cowdrey ahead of Gooch?

And that'd mean you also rate Cook below Cowdrey. I thought you were a Cook fan.

I actually went back on that stance, Gooch > Cook ~ Cowdrey, love Cook but Cowdrey is pretty underrated these days imho, he was very good

 

[sayon basak]

I actually went back on that stance, Gooch > Cook ~ Cowdrey, love Cook but Cowdrey is pretty underrated these days imho, he was very good

I too Rate Gooch ahead of the two, and not sure whom to rate higher between Cowdrey and Cook (maybe I'd lean towards Cowdrey).

 

[BazBall21]

I don't think Virat 2016-19 was too much better than Gooch 1990-early 1994 (first test in New Zealand) where he was just ridiculous and had the "fine, I'll do it myself, dumb****s" attitude.

pretty sure I discussed this with @capt_Luffy but I think Virat's 2023 was exaggerated, he was given a truly horrid track worse than the dreaded MCG pitch where he made a big 180 but was quiet for the rest of the year, there was iirc another flat draw pitch in Windies where he made a hundred, but by far the best work 2020-24 Kohli has done has been his work in South Africa, that is actually great.

it's possible, Ravi Shastri who is the owner of sporting beyond, a public reputation agency for Kohli more or less, implied that Kohli will play for 3 or 4 more years, Kohli has enough non-performing players like Sharma, Gill and Rahul to diverge attention toward whenever the team is failing, scapegoating someone else, so it's possible he tries to play until the next WTC cycle's finale.

Yeah. It was nice to see Kohli get back some temporary respectability in 2023 but I was never convinced great Kohli was back or anything like that.

Also I'm not convinced that will happen but if there's an actual obligation for Kohli to play 3/4 more years, finishing with a lower average than Gooch isn't implausible.

 

[BazBall21]

I rate Gooch as the best England batsman in the time between Boycott&Root. Big fan of his work v gun attacks as an opener (esp WI home&away of course), good v spin and scored daddy hundreds.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I don't think Virat 2016-19 was too much better than Gooch 1990-early 1994 (first test in New Zealand) where he was just ridiculous and had the "fine, I'll do it myself, dumb****s" attitude.

pretty sure I discussed this with @capt_Luffy but I think Virat's 2023 was exaggerated, he was given a truly horrid track worse than the dreaded MCG pitch where he made a big 180 but was quiet for the rest of the year, there was iirc another flat draw pitch in Windies where he made a hundred, but by far the best work 2020-24 Kohli has done has been his work in South Africa, that is actually great.

it's possible, Ravi Shastri who is the owner of sporting beyond, a public reputation agency for Kohli more or less, implied that Kohli will play for 3 or 4 more years, Kohli has enough non-performing players like Sharma, Gill and Rahul to diverge attention toward whenever the team is failing, scapegoating someone else, so it's possible he tries to play until the next WTC cycle's finale.

You can have Kohli now, don't care for the bozo anymore.

 

[sayon basak]

You can have Kohli now, don't care for the bozo anymore.

He'll comeback.

 

[BazBall21]

Kohli is too shameless to retire without a big series, he'll get humiliated in England and then have a decent series against Windies at home and then retire.

I've always been of the opinion that he will be granted a farewell Test series in their next home summer but starting to grow unsure. They aren't as sentimental as they used to be. His most common genre of dismissal is hardly uncommon in England. Any goodwill from his runs in SA pretty much out the window.

 

[Johan]

You can have Kohli now, don't care for the bozo anymore.

not sure Kohli will make the current English team tbh, doesn't score more than Crawley, doesn't open, doesn't score fast.

 

[sayon basak]

not sure Kohli will make the current English team tbh, doesn't score more than Crawley, doesn't open, doesn't score fast.

He could replace Bashir.

 

[BazBall21]

not sure Kohli will make the current English team tbh, doesn't score more than Crawley, doesn't open, doesn't score fast.

Not opening is a reasonable point in this comparison. And to Gordon. Tbh, I'm becoming a bigger believer in the severity of opening tax in general, especially outside the subcontinent of course.

 

[Johan]

I've always been of the opinion that he will be granted a farewell Test series in their next home summer but starting to grow unsure. They aren't as sentimental as they used to be. His most common genre of dismissal is hardly uncommon in England. Any goodwill from his runs in SA pretty much out the window.

From the reading I did of some of the Indian posts on Reddit today, it seems very subtle but the media is pretending that Kohli's most common form of dismissal (drive against an offside pitched delivery) is his only mode of dismissal, so fundamentally they're already trying to undersell the issues and pretend it's something mental instead of it obviously being mental + technical, so I think this will get him through the England series where I fully expect him to get slaughtered like 2014, but he really should try to retire in the upcoming windies home series with a nice century on a flatty.

 

[BazBall21]

From the reading I did of some of the Indian posts on Reddit today, it seems very subtle but the media is pretending that Kohli's most common form of dismissal (drive against an offside pitched delivery) is his only mode of dismissal, so fundamentally they're already trying to undersell the issues and pretend it's something mental instead of it obviously being mental + technical, so I think this will get him through the England series where I fully expect him to get slaughtered like 2014, but he really should try to retire in the upcoming windies home series with a nice century on a flatty.

There's no Anderson/Broad this time but experienced bowlers in the conditions should still be too much for him. Could get ugly. I think his maximum Test career shelf life is the end of their next home summer. Could be wrong.

 

[Johan]

There's no Anderson/Broad this time but experienced bowlers in the conditions should still be too much for him. Could get ugly. I think his maximum Test career shelf life is the end of their next home summer. Could be wrong.

honestly, assuming it's not a very hot summer and English pitches remain like they were against West Indies and Sri Lanka, I can see Chris Woakes and Sam Cook (if he ever plays a test) destroying Kohli, he looked completely helpless, even in his 2018 series was entirely dependent on the same cover drives he plays today and leaving the good balls, he can't play those drives with same efficiency as his speed is gone and he just can't leave balls these days as he doesn't seem eager to spend too much time at the crease.