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Steve Smith vs Brian Lara

Who is the better test batsman?


  • Total voters
    59

kyear2

International Coach
First innings runs are significantly more valuable over a large sample size.
It does set up a match, that's true. It's also the easiest (conditions and pressure) and those 3rd and 4th innings are both more difficult and often essential when trying to save a match under high pressure or deteriorating conditions.

I'm not using it to down grade anyone. As I said a few days back, he's more or less locked in for me, it's just an interesting observation.
 

kyear2

International Coach
Useless stat:

Two notable batsmen who averaged 50+ in 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th innings - Herbert Sutcliffe and Dudley Nourse. A current player with a decent career is very close to it as well.

Williamson
49.92
64.54
51.48
51.57
It's a piece of a large puzzle, no one's claiming it definitively means anything.

It's hardly useless though.
 

kyear2

International Coach
I honestly do not think it is such a big deal

Even Bradman averages “less” in the fourth innings

I rate Smith number 2 among batsmen who played since 1948
Everyone averages less, that's not news..

And your take is not a controversial one.

I think Tendulkar, Viv, and Sobers also can make that claim. Lara possibly a little less so, but he would have his advocates and I'll always say he's the best batsman I've ever watched.

Not to mention he's tied vs same Smith on this poll
 
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kyear2

International Coach
Pretty ****ed up.

His fielding also shows a downwards trend. Though its easier to have more chances earlier in a test match and more likely to have unfinished latter innings. Does go from 1.13 catches per innings in the first to 0.75 in the fourth. Probs meaningless tho and of course doesn’t reflect actual drops.

Could possibly be a reason why he often takes blinders and drops relatively easy catches tho.
I think taking the blinders vs flubbing the relative sitters may have more to do with the little.xtra time to think about it?

Just a thought based on my own experiences playing sports, the same cordon and playing tennis.
 

kyear2

International Coach
I feel this gets a bit lost because the great matchwinning innings in latter innings are rarer and more remembered, as well as obviously being towards the end of the match, while its easy to get caught up and forget earlier contributions. But in the long run the first innings runs lead to more sustained success. The game can often already be decided at that point, whereas first innings runs will always matter and in the majority of cases, set the tone for the match.



Yeah its just a random stat that means nothing imo lol.
I honestly have no idea where this idea that third and fourth innings runs > first innings runs have come from. First innings runs win Test matches, end of story.
Not a soul said more important.

But again, let's use this match. If the tail didn't wag, and wag significantly, the game wouldn't be over. Even if that slips catch was taken, the lead would have been way less and the match much more in the balance.

So while not saying it's an issue, the push back to the notion that 2nd half runs being important is a bit strange.
 

kyear2

International Coach
I have argued this for bowlers as well. Folks make a big deal of Murali and Warne cleaning up in the second half of a test but I argue setting up the game in the first half is a bit more important.

However, I will say for a batter it is a feather in the cap to be able to have a fine record in the 4th innings when batting is most difficult.
I think I agree with almost all of this.
 

kyear2

International Coach
I'm not gonna entertain a Sunny vs Sobers discussion because it's genuinely not close.

but Yeah, you shouldn't average 38 against one of the big three where your contributions can lead to victories, thought that was obvious.
That's the thing, @capt_Luffy thinks Garry vs Sunny is close and I can't figure that one out.
 

kyear2

International Coach
I think I’ll give him a pass on his initial tour of NZ when he was 19 similar to say, not judging Tendulkar’s teenage numbers too harshly.

Still, not including that he has two series and 8 matches, averaging 26.91 and 37.23.

He came into both series very much in form.

His 142 was on quite an easy pitch for batting, and he was also dropped on an easy chance apparently. Also, its a single innings out of 13. In the other 12 combined he scored 179. All in all I’d consider his record vs NZ a bit like Kohli’s series against NZ and Australia this year so far.

It is definitely a hole in his record. However much anyone wants to consider it in their rating of his batting is up to them, but denying that it exists is pure foolishness.
This has bothered me for a while, and because of laziness never took the 2 mins to check it.

Sobers played 7 matches over two tours to New Zealand.

In '56 he was a kid, still a bowling all rounder of sorts and on his first tour. Again, a batsman who never received any form of coaching until he got into the WI team as a teenager, and again as a spinner at that.

He was thrown by the conditions and never recovered that tour. Same way I give Imran a (deserved) pass for that first England tour, think we can do the same here. It's inconsequential.

The '69 tour came immediately (and I mean immediately, the first test started about week after the last Australian test finished) after al long and successful Australian tour where he had tests and a full f/c slate, where he shouldered a ridiculously heavy bowling load, even opening the bowling in some matches. That too on the heels of a full and heavy English county season.

After leaving Australia, he was in NZ within the week. For a tour against the weakest team and bowling of the era. So we look at exhaustion and if the now great man was even up for that "challenge"

NZ is inconsequential on his record
 

kyear2

International Coach
Miandad has a more padded home record and IMO Gavaskar has more impressive home achievements. And it's not like Miandad has a notably better away record, just arguably slightly better.
Exactly.

No one rates Miandad above Gavaskar.
 

kyear2

International Coach
His average in games Hadlee plays is just 35, and he does dismiss him a bunch, surely that shows he wasn't as invincible against Hadlee as he was against others?

now regarding England, one ATG series and one very good series at home but that's 2 serieses out of 9, everything else was from some level of one match performance to downright to downright unacceptable in 1984/85, so overall it's not really something extra ordinary to suggest he had an issue with England, after all he does average 38 against them even after playing most tests against England at 38.
Well said.
 

kyear2

International Coach
That was early career Hadlee before he became worldclass. Overall he underperformed in series with top Hadlee and Lillee.

Eng is below par. WI mixed. Pakistan very good.
And basically it in a nutshell.

He's a legit ATG, and a top 4 opener in history.

Don't see the argument to be in the BAB group.
 

howszat

Cricket Spectator
So watching this series, and again today Smith seemingly not kicking off in his 2nd match innings, wondering when was the last time he scored a 3rd or 4th innings hundred.


Smith
83 | 49 | 40 | 32 (69.34 / 38.09)
.
It is quite a significant drop in average from 1st match innings to 2nd/3rd/4th match innings.

Steve Smith

IMG_4124.jpeg

The drop off in 100s is equally striking.

Smith: 24 - 6 - 4 - 0
 

howszat

Cricket Spectator
Brian Lara

IMG_4125.jpeg

Sachin Tendulkar

IMG_4126.jpeg


Lara and Tendulkar have much less of a drop off in 2nd/3rd/4th match innings relative to their 1st match innings. Also evident by their number of hundreds in 2nd/3rd/4th innings. One can also conclude that if Australia is not batting first, Smith is unlikely to have a good match.
 
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subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
Shouldn't we care more about how he bowled in that particular series more??? I certainly do.
Ok but the main question will remain is did Gavaskar scored against prime Hadlee or not. If Hadlee had a quiet series but Gavaskar didnt score I don't see how that clears Gavaskars case.
 

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