capt_Luffy
Cricketer Of The Year
I think most of his best work (except his 88 Pakistan series) came in a really short and close albeit absolutely brilliant window.
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Warne vs Gavaskar
- Thread starter DrWolverine
- Start date
capt_Luffy
Cricketer Of The Year
99 makes any questions about McGrath redundant really.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
That is true. He lost his consistency after 81 but managed to maintain his numbers with enough goodish great performance until 89 when it just slipped.
Johan
International Regular
don't truly agree, I think even after his eyes were ruined and his batting dropped he has some senational work, the legendary 110 against England or his series where he averaged 60+ against Hadlee and ofcourse the Pakistan series, ofcourse the eye issues made him a lesser batter but still think 84-88 was ATG work anyway
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
I understand why folks say that. But like I said, I prefer more bulletproof bats who don't get owned ever by top bowlers. To me, that is the sort of invincibility that separates those at the top.
Would also point out that Lara clearly had issues with McGrath in similar dismissals even after 99 series in the 2000 series in Aus.
capt_Luffy
Cricketer Of The Year
Somewhat agree but not fully. He was pretty great over 84-88, but had lost his consistent edge
kyear2
International Coach
I don't get it, the best post war bowlers he could have faced were Lindwall and Miller and Ramadhin and Valentine. Pre war Constantine and Martindale, especially at home, probably gave the ATG batsmen of the era more trouble than anyone else and were a dropped catch away from keeping Bradman under a 50 average, and that was in Australia.
Not to add his home pitches were infinitely tougher, especially in the 50's
Johan
International Regular
Yeah, seemed disinterested but he averaged about enough and had enough quality work to still be considered ATG imo
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Viv played a lot of his cricket away from home.
Sliferxxxx
U19 12th Man
Subs give it a rest. Lara was no worse vs great pace than his great contemporary. And you lot always bring up context when we point out Sachins failures but don't do the same for Brian. Your behind brings up Australia 2000 for lara as if you missed the fact that he had a messed up shoulder to go along with his eye issues. I've said this before and I'll say it again, Lara failed vs Donald and the Wws. But against Lee he made runs. Against Ntini in 2003 he made runs. Against Bond at home in 2002 he made runs. You dismiss them because they arent household names but they all bowled like fire in the series when Lara made runs (they had Lara hopping as well).
Patience and Accuracy+Gut
State Vice-Captain
Given you mentioned dropped catch which is part of the game. It should also be mentioned Australia being caught on sticky wicket in last test, both innings in 5th test against Indies. Bradman didn’t start the series well in the first 2 matches, where he only batted twice and then once he took the control it was over. Rain definitely helped in the 5th test for Bradman averaging only 74 iirc.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Lee, Ntini aren't the same standard. He didn't make runs against a more mature Bond in NZ. Also clearly struggled against the Eng 2000s Ashes quartet.
Lara wasn't as safe as any of the top tier bats versus high quality pace. He had other advantages but we can just acknowledge this fact rather than pretend his game was something it was not.
Sliferxxxx
U19 12th Man
Now it's Bond was young and Lee wasn't the standard...smh as if that distracts from the fact that both were rapid and played lara on spicy wkts. But not too long ago you posted a clip of Lara vs Devon Malcolm to make a stupid point that lara was uncomfortable, conveniently forgetting still made runs. Lara made runs vs pace and failed every now and then vs it, just like every other batsman. Sachin has his own failures vs said English attacks as well. You are aware of that right ? Lara's issue was how he did away from the Caribbean nothing more, nothing less.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Sachin didn't have a weakness against any particular type of bowling.
Lara did against high quality pace (not just normal standard express guys) to the point where it became a frequent issue for him throughout his career, especially away from home where his pitches were flatter anyways. And there are enough samples to show that. Not saying he was an absolute failure but it was an issue that dogged him.
kyear2
International Coach
First up, no one's saying Sunny isn't an ATG.
I have him 10th all time. What I am saying is that he's not in that best after Bradman contention category.
He, unlike Hutton wasn't the best in or of his era, and two of the batsmen I rate above him, actually were the best of his, over the two half's of his career.
His two best years took place in '71 vs quite possibly the worst test attack ever and '78 vs WSC depleted attacks. That by itself is fine, but it also forms the basis of his legacy as being great in and vs the great West Indies attacks.
Luffy likes to say he did well vs peak Thompson, he didn't. That was a bit past his peak. He also faced a young and raw, yet fast Holding, but possibly peak Roberts.
Despite his reputation as being tremendous against pace, he didn't like or do well on fast tracks or swinging conditions vs top opposition, which is again fine. But again it's part of his legacy, and again, he's an opener. He was however majestic vs spin, though wasn't at his best vs movement.
Here's a post from SJS from a few years ago.
I will also include the disclaimer at the top.
(By the way, I do not think this detracts from his status as a great opening batsman but that post was written to put in perspective the impression carried by the majority that Gavaskar's great record against West Indies and his over all record, particularly away from home, is phenomenal because he faced the mightiest fast bowling during the 70's and 80's. I think and firmly believe that even with our heroes - and Gavaskar the batsman is a big hero of mine- we can and should be objective.
Gavaskar's career is a very interesting one. Before starting one has to state that he is one of the finest opening batsmen of all time but that should not prevent us from looking at his weaknesses. I have been fortunate enough to see him from his University days till the end of his great career. He was a batsman with a fabulous technique, a great idea of where his off stump was and one who could play all the strokes in the game though he gave up the hook very early in his test career.
Having said that, he did show a slightly reduced appetite for runs when faced by the real fast bowlers who also moved the ball. Pure speed did not trouble Gavaskar but movement coupled with sheer speed did find this great batsman at a level below his best - considerably his best I would say.
To analyse his career its not enough to talk of his record against the West Indies. Its much better to talk of his record away from the sub continent where the conditions did not often favour such bowling - speed and sharp movement - though there were the occasional exceptions to this. So lets look at how he fared in Australia, New Zealand, England AND West Indies.
Gavaskar in Australia
Gavaskar played three series in Australia.
- 1977-78 (5 tests)
- 1980-81 (3 tests)
- 1985-86 (3 tests)
In the first series, the Packer series took away almost the entire Australian regular team and the attack Gavaskar faced had only Thomson of any class whatsoever. The bowlers who assisted Thommo with the new ball during this series were :
- Wayne Clarke - who was making his debut
- JB Gannon - who was making his debut never to play again
- IW Callen - who was making his debut never to play again
In the last series in 1985-86, McDermott (a reasonable bowler) was assisted by :
- DR Gilbert - who had made his debut earlier that year
- Bruce Reid - making his debut and
- Merv Hughes - making his debut !!
He averaged 117 plus in the three tests he played in this series.
Thus in these two series with five debutants and another near-debutant, Gavaskar scored 802 runs in 8 tests with five hundreds ! Great.
The series in the middle - 1980-81 - was the only time Gavaskar faced Dennis Lillee in a test match although they both made their debut in the 1970-71 season and Gavaskar outlasted Lillee by three years !
In this series, Lillee was assisted by Lenny Pascoe and Rodney Hogg. Gavaskar scored a fighting 70 in the last innings of this three test series in a partnership of 165 for the first wicket with Chetan Chauhan to set up Australia a mere 142 to win the series 2-0. Kapil rocked Australia with 5 for 28 for India to win the match by an amazing 59 runs and draw the series.
Gavaskar, before that 70, had scores of 0. 10. 23. 5 and 10. He averaged 19.67 for the series.
You cant help but wonder how he would have fared had he faced Lillee more often. Maybe he would have come out on top maybe not ...
Gavaskar in NewZealand
Gavaskar played just two series in NewZealand.
- 1975-76 - 3 tests - 266 runs at 66.5
- 1980-81 - 3 tests - 126 runs at 25.2
Hadlee missed the first test of the first series. Gavaskar scored 116 and 35 not out. The young Hadlee played the next two games and Gavaskar got 22, 71, and 22.
In the next series, Hadlee , now assisted by Lance Cairns played all the three tests and Gavaskar scored 23, 12, 53, 5 and 33 !
It is strange. 151 for once out in one game and an average of 30 in the next five and Hadlee happens to be a conspicuous difference between the two sets of games.
Gavaskar in West Indies.
Gavaskar played three series in the Carribean.
- 1970-71 (4 tests) 774 runs at 154 +
- 1975-76 (4 tests) 390 runs at 55.7
- 1982-83 (5 tests) 240 runs at 30
In the second series. Andy Roberts was available only for two games, Holding, who bowled pretty well, was making his debut (not again) and Brendon Julien and Wayne Daniell brought up the rear. It was a reasonable attack though not a fearsome one and nowhere near the great West Indian attacks we talk of with awe. Gavaskar did well averaging in the mid fifties. This was not an attack to bother this great batsman.
The third series saw Gavasker faced with the full fury of the Windies pace battery. Holding, Roberts, Garner and Marshall were available right through the series.
Gavaskar scored a superb 147 not out in the middle of the series - the 3rd test which was drawn without even a single innings of either side being completed. However, on either side of this century Gavaskar had scores of 20, 0, 1, 32, 2, 19, 18, 1. Clearly the fearsome foursome had the measure of our great little master.
Gavaskar in England
Gavaskar toured England five times - more than any other country. Except for 1979, his record was far from great. The 1979 tour saw Gavaskar in great touch and he played probably the finest innings an Indian has played in England ever. He scored 542 runs on this tour at 77.4 with four fifties and a magnificient 221. In the other four series he scored :-
- 1971 - 3 tests - 144 runs at 24 - 1 fifty
- 1974 - 3 tests - 217 runs at 36.2 - 1 fifty and 1 hundred
- 1982 - 3 tests - 74 runs at 24.7 each - no fifty
- 1986 - 3 tests - 175 runs at 29.2 each - 1 fifty
The bowlers for these series were mainly
- Snow & Price,
- Old, Arnold & Hendricks,
- Willis & Botham and
- Dilley & Foster (with Pringle for company).
Well Gavaskar had his problems lets say and leave it at that.
---------------- Then in answer to a question asked by a poster I wrote....
Although one doesn't always fall to the bowler who is troubling him which is why we say so-and-so benefitted ecause a great bowler was bowling at the other end, here are the figures you ask for.
1980-81 - Australia
- New ball bowlers - Lillee, Pascoe and Hogg
- Gavaskar fell to one or the other of them in each of his six innings in the series - Lillee (2), Pascoe (3) and Hogg (1)
1975-76 and 1980-81 - NZL
- Of the eight innings in which he face Hadlee he fell to him twice. Falling to Snedden twice, Lance Cairns once and Dayle Hadlee once.
1982-83 - West Indies
- New Ball Bowlers - Holding, Marshall, Garner, Roberts
- Of his 8 didmissals in the series, Gavaskar fell to one or the other of these bowlers in seven innings and to another fast bowler, Winston Davis in the 8th.
- Holding (3), Marshall (2), Garner (2)
I forgot England tours. Here are the four tours where he did not do well.
- Year : 1971
- Main Bowlers : Snow and Price
Gavaskar fell to them four times out of six innings, twice each
- Year : 1974
- Main Bowers : Arnold, Chris Old and Hendrick
Gavaskar fell to one or the other of them in each of the five innings he was dismissed by bowlers. Old (3), Arnold (2)
- Year : 1982
- Main Bowlers : Botham and Willis
Gavaskar fell to them in each of the three innings he played . Willis (2), Botham (1)
- Year : 1986
- Main Bowlers : Dilley, Foster and Pringle*
Gavaskar fell to them five times in six innings the other time being his old 'friend' from England's tour of India, John Lever. Dilley (2), Foster (1), Pringle (2)
*Note: Pringle wasn't a frontline bowler but did very well in this series picking up 13 wickets in just two tests at very little cost.
I find it interesting to see how Gavaskar seemed to have trouble with those who made the ball come in as well as leave him. He was very good at letting the out swing go. We used to marvel at how he would let go deliveries pitching on the stumps and raise his bat and watch the ball pass just outside his off stump. He seemed to be flirting with danger but he knew exactly where his off stump was and where that ball was going. But if he got a bowler who made them come in as well as leave him, he had loads of problems.
Balls coming in and towards his middle and leg stump he had no problem and could keep clipping them off his toes from to mid-wicket to fine leg for days. But let the ball come in from outside the off stump and if it wasn't short enough he would have trouble.
Sometimes because it came in and had him leg before but more often when it didn't and he played at it not knowing it wasn't coming back.
One of the most frustrating things of watching Gavaskar bat was to see him give a master class and then suddenly touch one to the keeper or the slips. This from one who left literally hundreds of deliveries withing millimeters of his off stump.
His whole batting was built around leaving alone good deliveries if he could (or defending them if he couldn't) and punishing every lose delivery. His patience was phenomenal and his vigil (the wait for the loose delivery) never wavered. For someone who did not appear of an aggressive bent at the crease, Gavaskar was one of the most ruthless punishers of the bad delivery. He almost never missed it.
I strongly suspect that bowlers who troubled him with sharp and late inward movement, coupled with one that goes through or moves away off the seam, completely upset his normal game by making him unsure of which ball to leave.
But if he just brought the ball in and not much else, Gavaskar wasn't troubled.
It was fascinating to see how John Lever scythed through the Indian batting in India in 1976-77 , taking 26 wickets at a ridiculous 14.62 runs each with his massive inswing. While Lever was running through the Indian batting he did not get gavaskar too often. Gavaskar was having a modest home series - 394 runs in ten completed innings with one hundred and one fifty and an average approaching 40. However Lever got him only twice while Underwood took him out six times.
Gavaskar did not dominate Lever and was very watchful playing him but he did not get out to the new ball that often getting starts on most occasions with innings of 38 (140 balls), 71 (215), 18 (50), 39 (135), 24 (66), 50 (82), 108 (219), 42(103).
Thats a lot of deliveries. He was also becoming more aggresive towards the end of the series as his strike rate shows
Gavaskar was an ATG batsman and elite ATG cricketer.
He was not in my opinion in that elite tier of batsmen who are in contention for the best bat after Bradman, nor was he ever the preeminent batsman of his generation or era. There were actually 3 such batsmen that existed during his career, that were seen as his better. Even Chappell has an argument to be at least his equal.
This doesn't mean he's not top 10, doesn't mean he wasn't one the greatest openers ever, because he's very arguably the first and definitely the 3rd.
To get back to the thread, I also don't think he was better than Warne.
There are 7 players that made both the Cricinfo's and Wisden's all time XIs, think they can be seen as being beyond repute to a certain extent, especially considering Warne was the only one competing for only one spot.
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kyear2
International Coach
It was tougher, especially coming off the unprecedented run fest of the previous few decades.
Sliferxxxx
U19 12th Man
Sachin was suspect vs lesser bowlers like Cronje and had issues with Anderson's swing or did I imagine that.
And Lara’s home pitches were not flat. Tf are you talking about. Sabina was the fastest wicket in the world and Queens park and Kensington not too far behind. Bourda and the ARG were though.