subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
McGrath was still more intelligent but pre 94 Ambrose had the wrecking ball effect that was irresistible.
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Curtly Ambrose vs Dale Steyn
- Thread starter PlayerComparisons
- Start date
Ambrose, before his rotor-cuff shoulder surgery in 1994, was simply something else. He was phenomenal everywhere then (Asia/Australia/England).
His first couple of series in Australia, he was about as unplayable as I have seen a fast bowler be. The combination of pace, trajectory of the delivery, and the nagging accuracy, made it extremely tough for the batsmen. On top of this, every so often, he would suddenly come up with a brute of a delivery that made even great batsmen look utterly helpless (Allan Border in particular, and also Steve Waugh were on the receiving end of this on so many occassions).
It almost looked as if he could get a wicket at will. The psychological impact on the opposition batsmen was so visble. Quite a few times even if they managed to survive Ambrose's over, they would be so shaken up, they would get out trying a non-percentage shot against another bowler. In England, media once called him 'The Ogre' who would simply gobble up entire batting lineups.
Statistically, although Ambrose was still very good after his shoulder surgery, the explosiveness with which he would simply run through batting lineups became far less frequent, and also heavily pitch/conditions dependent.
His first couple of series in Australia, he was about as unplayable as I have seen a fast bowler be. The combination of pace, trajectory of the delivery, and the nagging accuracy, made it extremely tough for the batsmen. On top of this, every so often, he would suddenly come up with a brute of a delivery that made even great batsmen look utterly helpless (Allan Border in particular, and also Steve Waugh were on the receiving end of this on so many occassions).
It almost looked as if he could get a wicket at will. The psychological impact on the opposition batsmen was so visble. Quite a few times even if they managed to survive Ambrose's over, they would be so shaken up, they would get out trying a non-percentage shot against another bowler. In England, media once called him 'The Ogre' who would simply gobble up entire batting lineups.
Statistically, although Ambrose was still very good after his shoulder surgery, the explosiveness with which he would simply run through batting lineups became far less frequent, and also heavily pitch/conditions dependent.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Ambrose pre-94:
8/45 Eng
6/34 SA
6/74 Aus
7/25 Aus
6/24 Eng
Some of the ultimate matchwinning destructive spells ever.
8/45 Eng
6/34 SA
6/74 Aus
7/25 Aus
6/24 Eng
Some of the ultimate matchwinning destructive spells ever.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
The problem is Ambrose in the SC. A big hole in his CV. Also frankly little to show in NZ and SA.
Steyn just has a more well rounded record and skillset than Ambrose.
DrWolverine
International Debutant
Just checked. I am surprised that Steyn did not play much in NZ(3 Tests) and England(5 Tests). I expected SA to play a lot more Tests in atleast England.
DrWolverine
International Debutant
I think he would have done very well in NZ/SA.
But yes it would have been nice to see how he would have done in SC.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
My suspicion is that over a career course he would have poor returns in the SC. He was a corridor bowler who relied on some bounce/seam off the deck but without swing or cutters you will struggle.
Ambrose played well on unusually sporting pitches in Pakistan in 90 but was horrible on duller pitches in 97 even as Wasim and Walsh excelled, to the point Ambrose was thinking to retire.
Also never seemed to bring his A game against India for some odd reason. Maybe could have done well on an odd seamer in Kandy but I think overall he would have been blunted.
Without SC, Ambrose's record is pretty much Aus, Eng and WI only.
Steyn's success in the SC was mainly in Bangladesh & India (didn't play much in Pak, mixed results in Sri Lanka).
He wasn't particularly outstanding against Australia or England either (only 2 Test series out of 9 where he averaged below 25 against the two).
In general, although he had a phenomenal strike rate, he was very expensive for an ATG fast bowler in Test cricket.
There were multiple occasions where he was thrashed around, almost like a net bowler.
I remember one series in Sri Lanka where both the Jayawardanes as well as Sanga and even Jayasurya gave him a proper shellacking.
It was very rare (and very weird) to see an ATG fast bowler going for almost 5 (or more) RPO in Test cricket, especially after having bowled 10+ overs in the innings.
I once saw Phil Simmons and Lara giving such a hiding to peak Waqar in Barbados in 92-93 Test series, and thought it was very unusual.
Happened to Steyn on several occasions though.
He wasn't particularly outstanding against Australia or England either (only 2 Test series out of 9 where he averaged below 25 against the two).
In general, although he had a phenomenal strike rate, he was very expensive for an ATG fast bowler in Test cricket.
There were multiple occasions where he was thrashed around, almost like a net bowler.
I remember one series in Sri Lanka where both the Jayawardanes as well as Sanga and even Jayasurya gave him a proper shellacking.
It was very rare (and very weird) to see an ATG fast bowler going for almost 5 (or more) RPO in Test cricket, especially after having bowled 10+ overs in the innings.
I once saw Phil Simmons and Lara giving such a hiding to peak Waqar in Barbados in 92-93 Test series, and thought it was very unusual.
Happened to Steyn on several occasions though.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
He didn't play much in Pak but his fifer led to a series victory there in 2007. In SL, it did as well in 2014. Had an important role in the winning test in UAE too in 2013. Combine that with India and those are outstanding results that led to consistent series victories/draws.
I agree he was below par overall against England (despite winning key games in virtually every series) but Aus still with a very decent wicket haul of 70 in 15 tests (broken down in a couple).
Dude you are sounding like me. I have argued this against Steyn multiple times. He is the most inconsistent match to match ATG bowler capable of bowling ordinary I have seen and a leaky faucet. He has got brutalised not just by greats like Sehwag, KP, Sachin but also Warner, Hughes, Clarke and many others regularly.
This is why frankly I prefer consistent standouts like Marshall, Hadlee and McGrath (and even Imran who has a similar overall record to Steyn but minus the inconsistency and bashing).
The problem is we are comparing him with Ambrose who had the opposite problem of penetration. Ambrose would often bowl back of a length and in a shell. In over half of Ambrose career his wicket penetration was reduced, he became a consistent but manageable lower impact bowler Even in his pre 94 prime he would have inexplicable dry spells.
The kicker is that I have deduced that Ambrose overall didn't have the bowling set to really succeed in the SC so I decided to give the edge to an inconsistent but clearly impactful Steyn who is proven to win games anywhere over Ambrose who frankly seems a proven matchwinner in just WI, Aus and Eng (likely would have done so in SA and NZ too but didn't play enough).
DrWolverine
International Debutant
Steyn’s biggest weakness was that he could look normal and could get blasted for runs like a normal bowler on his off day which did happen a lot. His biggest strength was his ability to run through an any opposition regardless of the surface on his day.
Ambrose had his share of devastating spells but he would have often bowl “lazy” spells where he was completely unplayable but didn’t pick wickets.
Ambrose had his share of devastating spells but he would have often bowl “lazy” spells where he was completely unplayable but didn’t pick wickets.
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subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Yeah I argue his weakness did cost SA games and even series though so it's a bit serious.
But if Ambrose cant even get wickets in the SC that's more serious.
Both Ambrose and Steyn are in my second ATG XI.
Gavaskar
Sutcliffe
Headley/Chappell/Ponting
Lara
Smith
Hammond
Knott
Hadlee
Steyn
Ambrose
Murali
kyear2
International Coach
Outside of the top 3, all of the other bowlers had draw backs that keeps them out of the GOAT conversation.
Steyn could be taken apart and didn't seem to have a plan B at times.
Ambrose after the surgery could have dry spells, and he wasn't as penetrative.
Imran being a predominantly inswing bowler handicapped himself in places where bounce excluded lbw as the predominant option. Also had an identical career strike rate to Ambrose, so also wasn't always penetrative. And for the talk of Ambrose and the SC, Imran was objectively poor in India. So they both had their issues in the SC.
Lillee just didn't get around enough, and considering where he predominantly played, should have had a better record.
Donald, the least of all, but seemed to have a mental block when it came to Australia.
Trueman, objectively not great outside of England.
The spinners aren't any better.
Murali got taken apart in Australia and India and by Lara.
Warne similarity was man handled by every great batsman, and good player to spin he faced.
DrWolverine
International Debutant
Even McGrath and Hadlee had some drawbacks.
McGrath : A comparatively mediocre record against SouthAfrica. He also had a poor record in SriLanka and Pakistan.
Hadlee : A mediocre record against Pakistan and in WestIndies.
Garner : An almost perfect record except for one poor series against India. But the biggest drawback was that he was a support bowler.
In the last 50 years I would say Malcolm Marshall is perhaps the closest a bowler came to absolute perfection at least statistically. I think Marshall suffered an injury in the last match.
kyear2
International Coach
And?????
kyear2
International Coach
People start to come after me for these kinds of comments. But think than anecdotally, skill wise, statistically with the all round record home and away, the fear factor, the winning record and impact there on arguably the greatest team ever... That not only is he clearly (small but definitely clear margin) the greatest bowler ever, but that he's a top 3 player of all time.
I know not a soul agrees, but that's fine with me. If I could only have one player for my team from any time in history, he's one of the only 3 I'm even considering.
DrWolverine
International Debutant
Who?
sayon basak
International Captain
Marshall I guess.