Dennis Lillee vs Fred Trueman

[DrWolverine]

I've always thought Lillee and Hadlee had very similar bowling action. Maybe Hadlee had a comparatively lower gather in his action.

When I think of the world fast bowler, I imagine an aggressive fast bowler who doesn’t hesitate to bowl a bouncer or two. Allan Donald. Shoaib Akhtar fit that criteria. I am guessing the legendary Dennis Lillee was pretty much similar and had all those traits.

 

[sayon basak]

When I think of the world fast bowler, I imagine an aggressive fast bowler who doesn’t hesitate to bowl a bouncer or two. Allan Donald. Shoaib Akhtar fit that criteria. I am guessing the legendary Dennis Lillee was pretty much similar and had all those traits.

At 0:48 Lille bowls to back to back bouncers aiming Viv's head. And then bowls a much fuller delivery on the off stump to clean him up.

Beautiful sight.

 

[Swamp Witch Hattie]

Lillee is consistently rated higher than Hadlee etc from that era. And it seems to be pretty unanimous that he is seen as roo 3 by all who played him.

Do you think it's remotely possible that Lillee was better than we believe and Hadlee, for what ever reason just wasn't as good as his numbers say? Every book, list, recount of the era has Hadlee well below the top 2, and there does seem like there was seen to be a clear top 2.

No, it isn't remotely possible. Only to those suffering flashbacks of crazy thoughts they had more than a decade ago when they harboured doubts of Hadlee being even a top-10 Test bowler:

from http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/thr...owlers-of-all-time.32808/page-28#post-3232101:



I can't think of one other fast bowler in cricket history who carried his country so brilliantly like Hadlee did for 14 years (1976-90). So in a sense, he is more proven than any other fast bowler in history. It's bizarre that you seem to be questioning him more than Barry Richards who played a total of four Tests spanning something like 47 days! What is your thinking based on? Peer review? Let me sum up human evaluation for you even by those who should know better (but don't):

Hadlee was a NZer: strike one.

Hadlee wasn't express, he often relied upon subtle variations: strike two.

Hadlee was a serious and calculating individual: strike three.

Three strikes and you're out of consideration by many as the greatest ever (even though you might be the greatest ever).

I remember years ago reading something Michael Holding said about not regarding Hadlee as a great bowler but rather, as a great cricketer. I didn't think, "Well, Holding was a great fast bowler therefore I should listen to what he has to say". Instead, I correctly assessed his opinion as crap and dismissed it. Earlier this year, Ponting was talking some nonsense about how Williamson would retire as NZ's greatest cricketer (simply on the basis of accumulation). I didn't think, "Well, Ponting was a great batsman therefore I should listen to what he has to say". Instead, I thought, correctly, "What a moron!". As an Aussie, Ponting should have known that Hadlee was the best-performing visiting bowler to Australia EVER, and that against Australia, all Williamson has been able to do is average in the 30s. Which made me hold Ponting's opinion in even more contempt.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Gotta say every ATG deserves a fan as dedicated and efficient as @Swamp Witch Hattie

 

[Johan]

Gotta say every ATG deserves a fan as dedicated and efficient as @Swamp Witch Hattie

well, Hutton and Root have me.

 

[kyear2]

well, Hutton and Root have me.

Said ATG

 

[kyear2]

No, it isn't remotely possible. Only to those suffering flashbacks of crazy thoughts they had more than a decade ago when they harboured doubts of Hadlee being even a top-10 Test bowler:

from http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/thr...owlers-of-all-time.32808/page-28#post-3232101:

View attachment 43570

I can't think of one other fast bowler in cricket history who carried his country so brilliantly like Hadlee did for 14 years (1976-90). So in a sense, he is more proven than any other fast bowler in history. It's bizarre that you seem to be questioning him more than Barry Richards who played a total of four Tests spanning something like 47 days! What is your thinking based on? Peer review? Let me sum up human evaluation for you even by those who should know better (but don't):

Hadlee was a NZer: strike one.

Hadlee wasn't express, he often relied upon subtle variations: strike two.

Hadlee was a serious and calculating individual: strike three.

Three strikes and you're out of consideration by many as the greatest ever (even though you might be the greatest ever).

I remember years ago reading something Michael Holding said about not regarding Hadlee as a great bowler but rather, as a great cricketer. I didn't think, "Well, Holding was a great fast bowler therefore I should listen to what he has to say". Instead, I correctly assessed his opinion as crap and dismissed it. Earlier this year, Ponting was talking some nonsense about how Williamson would retire as NZ's greatest cricketer (simply on the basis of accumulation). I didn't think, "Well, Ponting was a great batsman therefore I should listen to what he has to say". Instead, I thought, correctly, "What a moron!". As an Aussie, Ponting should have known that Hadlee was the best-performing visiting bowler to Australia EVER, and that against Australia, all Williamson has been able to do is average in the 30s. Which made me hold Ponting's opinion in even more contempt.

It wasn't just some observers though, it was pretty even among the batsmen of the era as well.

In any event, was just wondering. And to be fair, while they both played, Lillee was better for the most part.

 

[Johan]

Said ATG

I got Root as ATG lol, I'm waiting to see how high he will end, big series in Australia and South Africa in next 2 years would do wonders

 

[sayon basak]

I got Root as ATG lol, I'm waiting to see how high he will end, big series in Australia and South Africa in next 2 years would do wonders

That'll definitely make him an indisputed ATG.

 

[Johan]

That'll definitely make him an indisputed ATG.

Yeah, big series in Aus and then maybe another couple until retirement and he'd be an elite ATG for me.

 

[sayon basak]

Yeah, big series in Aus and then maybe another couple until retirement and he'd be an elite ATG for me.

Also becoming the most/2nd most run scorer in the history of test cricket would help his cause very much.

England has 10 tests in the next year. So, if he plays for 3/4 more years, he should get approximately 35 tests. Assuming he'll score his remaining runs at identical RPI, he should end up with 12972+85*35= 15947 runs.

That'd be cool.

 

[Johan]

Also becoming the most/2nd most run scorer in the history of test cricket would help his cause very much.

England has 10 tests in the next year. So, if he plays for 3/4 more years, he should get approximately 35 tests. Assuming he'll score his remaining runs at identical RPI, he should end up with 12972+85*35= 15947 runs.

That'd be cool.

we're taking legs off the next year seemingly in number of tests, it's more likely he's get 13-14 tests a year in 2026 and 2027 (he'll def play until then), unless he falls off (unlikely) or decides that he is done if he has a big 2025 Ashes (probable), he should get there

 

[sayon basak]

we're taking legs off the next year seemingly in number of tests, it's more likely he's get 13-14 tests a year in 2026 and 2027 (he'll def play until then), unless he falls off (unlikely) or decides that he is done if he has a big 2025 Ashes (probable), he should get there

So, he'll become the first batter to reach 16000 runs, potentially in a lower number of test matches than Sachin?


Nice.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I got Root as ATG lol, I'm waiting to see how high he will end, big series in Australia and South Africa in next 2 years would do wonders

I think there really isn't much separate between him and players like Ponting, Sangakkara and Dravid; except for nostalgia.

well, Hutton and Root have me.

No no, you aren't. @GIMH is a bigger Root fan easily, as is @PlayerComparisons a Root hater; and a fair few places Hutton above all bar Don. I myself rate him over Viv. Heck, Hutton ranked 5th in the last poll itself.

 

[Johan]

I think there really isn't much separate between him and players like Ponting, Sangakkara and Dravid; except for nostalgia.

I think a sign of a second tier ATG like these guys and Root is, a country as a caveat in their record.Dravid has Sri Lanka and South Africa, Ponting has India and England, Kallis has England and Sri Lanka, Sangakkara has South Africa and England similarly Root has Australia. a complete record is what I think is needed to get to the top 10/Elite ATG tier, otherwise you're always gonna be second rate. Regardless I think all 5 of these are about the same level.

No no, you aren't. @GIMH is a bigger Root fan easily, as is @PlayerComparisons a Root hater; and a fair few places Hutton above all bar Don. I myself rate him over Viv. Heck, Hutton ranked 5th in the last poll itself.

Root will grow on PC one day I think but yeah fair, guess I'm more a Viv glazer than a Hutton glazer considering I've Viv as #4 and a top 3 contender while Hutton at 6.

 

[kyear2]

I got Root as ATG lol, I'm waiting to see how high he will end, big series in Australia and South Africa in next 2 years would do wonders

I have no argument with your opinion as to who is an ATG. But I don't think longevity after a certain point can make you one. For me it's a quality not a quantity thing if that makes sense.

 

[Johan]

I have no argument with your opinion as to who is an ATG. But I don't think longevity after a certain point can make you one. For me it's a quality not a quantity thing if that makes sense.

13000 runs, mostly in bowling era, 51 avg while batting with a batting lineup of nobodies on top bar a declining Cook for the first 1/4 of his career, personally think he has a very strong case.

 

[peterhrt]

Hadlee wasn't express, he often relied upon subtle variations: strike two.

Bowlers who forced batsmen to retire hurt most often in Tests between 1 October 1974 and 10 March 1995. Source: Letting RIP by Simon Wilde. Hadlee had his share of victims - the same number as Lillee and Thomson put together.

7 - Marshall
6 - Croft, Walsh, Willis
5 - Hadlee, Roberts
4 - McDermott
3 - Botham, Garner, Thomson
2 - Alderman, Ambrose, Azeem Hafeez, Sylvester Clarke, Winston Davis, Holding, Lillee, Mohsin Kamal, Pascoe
1 - Mohinder Amarnath, Angel, Winston Benjamin, Bishop, Collinge, Dilley, Donald, Holder, Imran, Kapil Dev, Lawson, Peter Lever, Chris Lewis, Malcolm, Morrison, Moseley, Rumesh Ratnayake, Bruce Reid, Sarfraz Nawaz, Srinath, Waqar, Wasim Akram

 

[Johan]

Bowlers who forced batsmen to retire hurt most often in Tests between 1 October 1974 and 10 March 1995. Source: Letting RIP by Simon Wilde. Hadlee had his share of victims - the same number as Lillee and Thomson put together.

7 - Marshall
6 - Croft, Walsh, Willis
5 - Hadlee, Roberts
4 - McDermott
3 - Botham, Garner, Thomson
2 - Alderman, Ambrose, Azeem Hafeez, Sylvester Clarke, Winston Davis, Holding, Lillee, Mohsin Kamal, Pascoe
1 - Mohinder Amarnath, Angel, Winston Benjamin, Bishop, Collinge, Dilley, Donald, Holder, Imran, Kapil Dev, Lawson, Peter Lever, Chris Lewis, Malcolm, Morrison, Moseley, Rumesh Ratnayake, Bruce Reid, Sarfraz Nawaz, Srinath, Waqar, Wasim Akram

Walsh got more than Holding and Thompson?! bruh

 

[Swamp Witch Hattie]

Bowlers who forced batsmen to retire hurt most often in Tests between 1 October 1974 and 10 March 1995. Source: Letting RIP by Simon Wilde. Hadlee had his share of victims - the same number as Lillee and Thomson put together.

7 - Marshall
6 - Croft, Walsh, Willis
5 - Hadlee, Roberts
4 - McDermott
3 - Botham, Garner, Thomson
2 - Alderman, Ambrose, Azeem Hafeez, Sylvester Clarke, Winston Davis, Holding, Lillee, Mohsin Kamal, Pascoe
1 - Mohinder Amarnath, Angel, Winston Benjamin, Bishop, Collinge, Dilley, Donald, Holder, Imran, Kapil Dev, Lawson, Peter Lever, Chris Lewis, Malcolm, Morrison, Moseley, Rumesh Ratnayake, Bruce Reid, Sarfraz Nawaz, Srinath, Waqar, Wasim Akram

I would have given you a Love icon, Peter, but I thought it inconsistent with the batsmen suffering pain!