Alastair Cook vs Graeme Smith

[capt_Luffy]

OFC home is more important than some random country. It becomes increasingly less reliable as a better measure of quality the more you prune from it. It's just sample size and number of opponents that make it more reliable.

Nobody is claiming that Smith was good in RSA. With or without excluding any of his record. But nor were the oprning contemporaries from other countries he gets compared to. 34 is the highest average any of them had. Comparing averages without context makes Smith look better than he actually was at home relative to them.

Without going into which bowlers were better at home, what reason is there for your 'Warne better away' logic not applying to Smith?

Warne was overall still Great at home, like ATG great. That's not a good comp and you know that.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Even accounting for home conditions, really?

Yes.

 

[Prince EWS]

Why is Graeme Smith rated this much higher that Alastair Cook, if I may ask?

Batting.

 

[Bolo.]

Luffy does have Smith above Cook, but Cook has advantage even away from Home in Australia and India. Smith's advantage is in New Zealand and England, it depends what you value more I guess, but Cook vs Smith away isn't the run away Victory one that Warne vs Ashwin away is.

I'm speaking more about Sehwag and Hayden here. Hardly anyone rates Cook above Smith.

These country breakdowns don't work in the way you are suggesting for Smith/Cook. Even if ignoring the vastly superior record that Smith has in RSA, Eng, and NZ, they still have fairly comparable records elsewhere. Country breakdowns are never going to work for an opener averaging 55 away who was at least decent everywhere. I reckon Cook may have had a rougher ride away, and maybe the numbers shouldn't be taken at face value. If this is true, I doubt it's by the degree their averages suggest.

 

[Bolo.]

Warne was overall still Great at home, like ATG great. That's not a good comp and you know that.

Applying the same principles to different players is a good way of comparing. We don't need to be comparing players of the same quality for this to be true. Either we count away records more, or we don't.

 

[BazBall21]

Smith

 

[Johan]

I'm speaking more about Sehwag and Hayden here. Hardly anyone rates Cook above Smith.

These country breakdowns don't work in the way you are suggesting for Smith/Cook. Even if ignoring the vastly superior record that Smith has in RSA, Eng, and NZ, they still have fairly comparable records elsewhere. Country breakdowns are never going to work for an opener averaging 55 away who was at least decent everywhere. I reckon Cook may have had a rougher ride away, and maybe the numbers shouldn't be taken at face value. If this is true, I doubt it's by the degree their averages suggest.

RSA isn't generally fair as a comparision point, Cook was facing an ATG attack in foreign land, at most you can say Smith was better in Cook's home than Cook was in Smith's, regardless when home numbers are compared Cook's output in England is actually vastly superior to Smith's output in South Africa. Cook's numbers are vastly superior in Australia and India by the way. so that's three points in Cook's favour already. Smith averages 55 away sure but I don't think that can be taken at face value either.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Applying the same principles to different players is a good way of comparing. We don't need to be comparing players of the same quality for this to be true. Either we count away records more, or we don't.

That's a strange hill imo. I think we should count home/away record around equally; probably 55-45 for away and home split.

 

[trundler]

Smith is perennially overrated but still better here

 

[BazBall21]

Hayden
Smith
Cook
Sehwag

 

[sayon basak]

Hayden
Smith
Cook
Sehwag

@shortpitched713 is this ranking okay?

 

[Bolo.]

RSA isn't generally fair as a comparision point, Cook was facing an ATG attack in foreign land, at most you can say Smith was better in Cook's home than Cook was in Smith's, regardless when home numbers are compared Cook's output in England is actually vastly superior to Smith's output in South Africa. Cook's numbers are vastly superior in Australia and India by the way. so that's three points in Cook's favour already. Smith averages 55 away sure but I don't think that can be taken at face value either.

RSA isn't a fair comparison point when it makes Cook look bad, but is when it makes Cook look bad it is?

RSA weren't playing ATG attacks vs Eng in RSA. Philander never played. Steyn played 4 and a green Rabada played 3. The attack for the 2009 series was genuinely pretty poor besides Steyn, who didn't play the whole series. Cook didn't face the kinds of attacks that RSA have usually had since the 2010s.

Of the 9 countries they both played in, Smith averages more in 6, and has the biggest gaps, with a chunky gap in overall away. I'm not too sure who was better at home. Smith did have it rougher. England had a lot of serious flatties, but the Dukes partially bridges this. Maybe Cook a smidge better, but close either way.

 

[Johan]

RSA isn't a fair comparison point when it makes Cook look bad, but is when it makes Cook look bad it is?

RSA weren't playing ATG attacks vs Eng in RSA. Philander never played. Steyn played 4 and a green Rabada played 3. The attack for the 2009 series was genuinely pretty poor besides Steyn, who didn't play the whole series. Cook didn't face the kinds of attacks that RSA have usually had since the 2010s.

Of the 9 countries they both played in, Smith averages more in 6, and has the biggest gaps, with a chunky gap in overall away. I'm not too sure who was better at home. Smith did have it rougher. England had a lot of serious flatties, but the Dukes partially bridges this. Maybe Cook a smidge better, but close either way.

RSA is fair when comparing their output in their respective home conditions, but I don't think it's fair when you compare Cook's record to Smith's in SA considering the disparency in sample size and attacks faced.On the flipside, Graeme gets the point for being much better in Cook's backyard than Cook was in his, seems just fair to me.

Rabada was a beast right off the gate and Steyn was still a beast, Morkel was also good, It isn't the strongest attack in the world but it's comfortably better than the English attacks that Smith scored 2 consecutive double tons against for example.

Cook's output against non-minnows at home is 45 compared to Smith's 38, on top of Dukes being the equalizing factor between conditions, it's not close about whose better at home.

and a lot of away output gaps are just blatantly contextual, like 2010s West Indies and Bangaldesh being stronger than the ones Smith faced, the home pitches of the 2016 series in particular being horrible with them actually having test class spinners. the legitmate advantages Smith has — UAE Record, New Zealand Record, England Record + performance in Cook's home country, the legitmate advantages Cook has — Sri Lanka record, Australia record, India record + much greater home output. not a run away debate at all.

 

[Bolo.]

That's a strange hill imo. I think we should count home/away record around equally; probably 55-45 for away and home split.

This type of weighting would put Smith even with Hayden and Sehwag without even considering the difficulty of home conditions.

 

[Bolo.]

RSA is fair when comparing their output in their respective home conditions, but I don't think it's fair when you compare Cook's record to Smith's in SA considering the disparency in sample size and attacks faced.On the flipside, Graeme gets the point for being much better in Cook's backyard than Cook was in his, seems just fair to me.

Rabada was a beast right off the gate and Steyn was still a beast, Morkel was also good, It isn't the strongest attack in the world but it's comfortably better than the English attacks that Smith scored 2 consecutive double tons against for example.

Cook's output against non-minnows at home is 45 compared to Smith's 38, on top of Dukes being the equalizing factor between conditions, it's not close about whose better at home.

and a lot of away output gaps are just blatantly contextual, like 2010s West Indies and Bangaldesh being stronger than the ones Smith faced, the home pitches of the 2016 series in particular being horrible with them actually having test class spinners. the legitmate advantages Smith has — UAE Record, New Zealand Record, England Record + performance in Cook's home country, the legitmate advantages Cook has — Sri Lanka record, Australia record, India record + much greater home output. not a run away debate at all.

I don't like this method of checking off records in particular countries. There's just too much variance in numbers. Nevertheless, approaching it on your terms, Smith averages more in 6/9, and is ahead in 2 by 30+ runs.

Rabada was always a major threat at home, but that was partly just conditions. He's only recently started fixing his away record. The 2016 attack was still good with him and Steyn playing a total of 4 games and Morkel being extremely good by that stage. 2009 was basically Steyn or bust, and Steyn only played 3. Morkel was junk at that stage, and the other options were worse.

It's definitely close between them in their home conditions. I don't think head to head comparisons are reliable, but the fact that Cook averaged 31 in RSA and Smith 68 in Eng should give some pause, as should the home awy splits from each team.

Their eras weren't too different. Things were starting to toughen up a bit in the last couple of years of Cook's time, but in general they were both soft eras and mainly overlapped.

 

[capt_Luffy]

This type of weighting would put Smith even with Hayden and Sehwag without even considering the difficulty of home conditions.

Like, Smith is better than Hayden and Sehwag

 

[Johan]

I don't like this method of checking off records in particular countries. There's just too much variance in numbers. Nevertheless, approaching it on your terms, Smith averages more in 6/9, and is ahead in 2 by 30+ runs.

Rabada was always a major threat at home, but that was partly just conditions. He's only recently started fixing his away record. The 2016 attack was still good with him and Steyn playing a total of 4 games and Morkel being extremely good by that stage. 2009 was basically Steyn or bust, and Steyn only played 3. Morkel was junk at that stage, and the other options were worse.

It's definitely close between them in their home conditions. I don't think head to head comparisons are reliable, but the fact that Cook averaged 31 in RSA and Smith 68 in Eng should give some pause, as should the home awy splits from each team.

Their eras weren't too different. Things were starting to toughen up a bit in the last couple of years of Cook's time, but in general they were both soft eras and mainly overlapped.

Yeah sure, but him being ahead in the countries require major context, like Windies/Bangladesh just doesn't make sense considering the difference in quality of attacks, it's simply Smith being better in New Zealand, England and UAE while worse everywhere else.

Less than a year later Rabada would've an amazing series in Australia, he was just amazing right off the bat, recently he has been figuring out how to bowl in Asia and in pitches without high bounce or variable bounce (NZ/Eng), his abilitu at home and in Australia was never questionable. The 2016 attack was indeed very good, and the 2009 attack I'd argue was better than the England attack Smith feasted on.

It's definitely not close on home conditions between them on the basic law of output, and the 31 average in South Africa to me speaks more about how good south African bowling was, and especially the elephant in the room being Morne Morkel who (barring maybe Ishant) Cook struggled with the most in his entire career, in England or in South Africa. Smith averaging 68 in England is great but I always said Smith is a better player of movement so It doesn't surprise me that he performs in 2000s England.

The eras overlapped, the team qualities didn't, Taylor/Gabriel/Holder/Roach are much better bowlers to face in Windies than the ones Smith feasted upon, and 2016 Bangladesh (which brought Cook's 110 average in Ban down) were on horrible turners and against decent spinners bar pre-2014 Bangladesh wasn't international level in bowling.

 

[Bolo.]

Yeah sure, but him being ahead in the countries require major context, like Windies/Bangladesh just doesn't make sense considering the difference in quality of attacks, it's simply Smith being better in New Zealand, England and UAE while worse everywhere else.

Less than a year later Rabada would've an amazing series in Australia, he was just amazing right off the bat, recently he has been figuring out how to bowl in Asia and in pitches without high bounce or variable bounce (NZ/Eng), his abilitu at home and in Australia was never questionable. The 2016 attack was indeed very good, and the 2009 attack I'd argue was better than the England attack Smith feasted on.

It's definitely not close on home conditions between them on the basic law of output, and the 31 average in South Africa to me speaks more about how good south African bowling was, and especially the elephant in the room being Morne Morkel who (barring maybe Ishant) Cook struggled with the most in his entire career, in England or in South Africa. Smith averaging 68 in England is great but I always said Smith is a better player of movement so It doesn't surprise me that he performs in 2000s England.

The eras overlapped, the team qualities didn't, Taylor/Gabriel/Holder/Roach are much better bowlers to face in Windies than the ones Smith feasted upon, and 2016 Bangladesh (which brought Cook's 110 average in Ban down) were on horrible turners and against decent spinners bar pre-2014 Bangladesh wasn't international level in bowling.

For Rabada, you are just saying playing in pace friendly conditions in more words. Cook struggling against Morkel was a Cook issue. These were not great attacks. You are assuming they were because a lot of players from Cooks era on did face great attacks. But he faced worse bowlers. They were better than the average quality of attack Smith faced in RSA. But not 30% (the difference between their averages in RSA) better. 8 games for Morkel, 7 for Rabada and Steyn together meant a lot of overs from some seriously weak bowlers.

The point you are making about quality of attacks rather than eras works both ways. See Smith facing better bowlers in SL and Aus, which is 2/3 places Cook averaged more in.

Anyway, I think Cook likely had it a bit rougher away, but it's close enough to be unclear. The difference between their away records is extremely clear.

 

[Fanboy375]

Batting.

Cook bowling record is better than Marshall

 

[Prince EWS]

Cook bowling record is better than Marshall

No it isn't.