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**Official** England in New Zealand 28 Nov-18 Dec 2024 - 3 Tests

LangleyburyCCPlayer

First Class Debutant
I have been a lot more impressed by England's bowling than their batting this series. Which is partly just because my expectation was the reverse.

Brook's hundred in the first innings here was by all accounts a class apart, but most of the other key knocks for England have been rather skittish and chancy. Bethell obviously played well but his partnership with Duckett wasn't particularly secure or convincing given some of the edges for four and plays and misses I watched on the one day I was able to stay up late. They've been playing against a limp fielding effort and as noted Southee isn't contributing any more, so the challenge of batting in NZ hasn't quite held up to usual standard.

The bowling on the other hand has generally been excellent, most notably Carse has been relentless but Woakes and Atkison have also consistently taken key wickets against technically strong players to set up every innings except the very first, and on that first day they dug deep and didn't let NZ get away from them. Every time the game has been in the balance they've delivered, the entire set of good scores against them across two tests have been one Williamson fifty on the first day followed by two knocks after the game was already over.
The bowling, in particular Carse, has been class (pun firmly intended!), the batting has been largely what we have come to expect (inconsistent top order, supreme middle order), although Bethell has emerged as a possible option for the top 3 and Brook has shown he can make difficult runs in tricky conditions, I’d say they’ve all emerged with credit apart from Crawley and Woakes (if his batting is even important these days)
 

danzydab

U19 Cricketer
Atkinson has played 10 tests in 5 months. That is alot of test cricket for a fast bowler. No injury breakdowns so far, this is exactly what England were looking for.
I wonder if England will consider resting one of the seamers for Stone.
 
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Chin Music

State Vice-Captain
In 2024, England have won 8 tests and lost 7. Unless two days or more of torrential rain then only a fool would predict a draw for the final test. So England have to get a result in the final test to be in credit for the year.

Edit: it is 9-7 now. Even so I would want a result as 9-8 would seem a bit meh.
 
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SteveNZ

Cricketer Of The Year
People loved Wagner because he was obviously giving everything. Southee looks like he doesn't want to be there and the vibe from the rest of the team isn't much better than that.
Wags was cooked but he still took a pair of 4-fors in that England series last summer, including a match-winning one at the Basin. And as you say, he added value with his presence. Yet again yesterday, Southee looked pedestrian then played a typical Tim Southee shot (yes, I realise the game was over) to hook out with 4 men back.

I imagine they'll consider Santner playing in Hamilton, which means Nathan Smith gets dropped, which is palpably ridiculous. Smith should have been playing 12 months ago. Equally, they'll probably just leave the XI because Stead doesn't really give a **** or have any bright ideas, and it's easier that way.
 

LangleyburyCCPlayer

First Class Debutant
Atkinson has played 10 tests in 5 months. That is alot of test cricket for a fast bowler. No injury breakdowns so far, this is exactly what England were looking for.
I wonder if England will consider resting one of the seamers for Stone.
He played 6 in a row in the summer, there was never any chance of resting him for the final Test of that run as it was at the Oval, even though he could have done with it as his speeds were well down on what they had been (even now, despite the New Zealand wind being a factor, they are not up to what they were at the beginning of the summer). Carse is obviously a lot fresher having had the majority of the summer off and only playing once in Pakistan, I’d like to give both Potts and Stone a whirl in the third Test, which probably involves Atkinson and Woakes dropping out
 
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LangleyburyCCPlayer

First Class Debutant
Or we could potentially wrap Carse in cotton wool, wouldn’t want to risk injury for him with the series already won. Wouldn’t mind Robinson getting a belated run-around, but I highly doubt that will happen
 

Skyliner

State Captain
England set-up picks Bethell and there are dark warnings about how English first class cricketers might get their noses out of joint. This is all this toxic ‘pecking order’ stuff again. Baz and Ben just laugh.
Meanwhile Stead is totally in thrall to ‘pecking order’. Old past-it players have to be winkled and cajoled out of the side via a process reminiscent of life-or-death hostage negotiations. “I’ll come out, but I want a farewell series and safe passage to the Seychelles”.
Contrast the freewheeling ‘what have got to lose, we might unearth a gem’ attitude of the English brains trust with the ultra-conservative emotionally constipated Gary Stead and his acolytes.
 

NZTailender

I can't believe I ate the whole thing
Neil Wagner must be sitting at home in the Bay right now wondering why Tim Southee is so special he was afforded a farewell tour when he’s looking even more cooked then he was last season.

What a joke. I’ll always watch test cricket involving NZ but I’m not watching another game of limited overs until Stead gets the ****ing boot.
Best thing would've been Boult gets that Bay Oval call up, the two old mates get a final farewell at the right time (well they both had gone down a bit in tests by then).

I sometimes wonder if the unavailability of Boult and the decline of Wagner has seen timmeh get a lot longer so there wasn't a culture shock of losing 3 stalwarts in super quick succession. But we have Henry now, with O'Rourke, Smith and Sears knocking about and some depth in the domestic stocks (and the maybe/maybe not of Jamieson) so it's definitely a luxury he's been afforded for 17 years of service.
 

LangleyburyCCPlayer

First Class Debutant
England set-up picks Bethell and there are dark warnings about how English first class cricketers might get their noses out of joint. This is all this toxic ‘pecking order’ stuff again. Baz and Ben just laugh.
Meanwhile Stead is totally in thrall to ‘pecking order’. Old past-it players have to be winkled and cajoled out of the side via a process reminiscent of life-or-death hostage negotiations. “I’ll come out, but I want a farewell series and safe passage to the Seychelles”.
Contrast the freewheeling ‘what have got to lose, we might unearth a gem’ attitude of the English brains trust with the ultra-conservative emotionally constipated Gary Stead and his acolytes.
England have not always simply picked based on county form, I think there has long been an understanding that pitches and conditions in the County Championship are not the same as you'll find elsewhere (Boyd Rankin anyone?), but we've taken that into turbocharge these days. Steve Finn wrote an interesting piece on it the other day, one of the factors that makes domestic first-class games so different to Test games is the sheer amount of games they play (and when they play them), but I guess that's not as much of a factor in New Zealand with fewer FC teams
 

Skyliner

State Captain
Dylan Cleavers 'Notes from the Basin #3' is well worth a read -


Plus an interesting comment from below that article:
'Both Weenink and Latham have already said Southee will play in Hamilton. The reaction to that on Sport Nation was spicy to say the least. Ian Smith’s line was “you don’t get benefit matches in test cricket”. The scenario he painted out things in perspective - if Hamilton looks like it’ll take spin and Santner comes in who steps aside to allow Southee his place? Probably Nathan Smith and given what he did in Wellington versus Southee how is that just?'
 
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Flem274*

123/5
Southee has been singled out (correctly) but the entire side is producing garbage.

There is an argument they've all slid due to being of a similar age, but everyone hitting the wall at once is unlikely, and I think the majority still have the talent for test cricket but need strong, fair leadership and a rocket up the arse. The catching since 2021 epitomizes it.

Coaches and senior players set standards. They're not being set or met.
 

Skyliner

State Captain
More from Cleaver below:

In his post-match interview on the ground on Sunday, Latham was asked what he hoped to get out of the third test and said his team would aspire to secure a consolation win, but that it would also be “a great occasion for Tim’s last test match”.

Pressed on whether that meant Southee’s place in the XI wouldn’t be part of any selection discussions in the press conference that followed, Latham said: “We will head to Hamilton and we'll wait and see what we believe the best team is to win that test match”.


'For me it’s pretty simple. Southee is just as out of form as Conway. If he plays it will so this team is more serious about marketing than it is test cricket. Granted, it will be awkward with all his family expected to be in Hamilton but hey, Wagner’s farewell in front of his family, who were flown in from South Africa, was also a non-playing one.'
 

straw man

Hall of Fame Member
Hmm interesting.

I've been firmly in the camp that Young shouldn't come back into the team as an opener (3 or lower pls), but if it's a one-off and a dead rubber than it's still a good opportunity for him.
 

Skyliner

State Captain
I'd much prefer they call up Rhys Marius instead of Mark Chapman and just play him in the XI. Young should be a middle-order bat now.
There seems to be a feeling that it's too early to go to Mariu. This is what his Canterbury coach Peter Fulton had to say on 7 December about where he is at:
“A long way to go, but I’d like to think if he kicks on this season and he continues to score runs he’ll be involved in some [New Zealand] ‘A’ cricket in the next year or two and like all the players that will be a bit of a step up and a good test for him.”
 

ataraxia

International Coach
There seems to be a feeling that it's too early to go to Mariu. This is what his Canterbury coach Peter Fulton had to say on 7 December about where he is at:
“A long way to go, but I’d like to think if he kicks on this season and he continues to score runs he’ll be involved in some [New Zealand] ‘A’ cricket in the next year or two and like all the players that will be a bit of a step up and a good test for him.”
I read that as simply managing his expectations, which is a perfectly correct thing to do as his coach.
 

Bahnz

Hall of Fame Member
I'd much prefer they call up Rhys Marius instead of Mark Chapman and just play him in the XI. Young should be a middle-order bat now.
"Lol, born in 2001?! This is a cricket game not a ****n' space odyssey. Gimme a bell in 10 years time (when I'll definitely still be coach) and I might give him a second look - if he's prepared to work on his spin bowling." - Gary Stead
 

Skyliner

State Captain
I'd much prefer they call up Rhys Marius instead of Mark Chapman and just play him in the XI. Young should be a middle-order bat now.
Setting Young up to fail. He goes in as Opener where he's not suited, nicks off early doors, goes back to sitting on the bench again.
 
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