Rank them : Donald, Imran and Akram

[Coronis]

Highlight of your non-political career? @Prince EWS ?

 

[Coronis]

Haha I like his videos a lot but yeah there definitely does seem to be a bit of appeal to authority fallacy about them lately here.

He's shown my posts in his videos a couple of times so he must read the forum sometimes. Hi Jarrod if you're reading!

Felt like he was mentioned once out of the blue re: Gilchrist and Flower and since then there’s been a deluge of posts about him and his opinions.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I remember seeing a Fredfertang tweet in a Kimber video

 

[Swamp Witch Hattie]

Imran is easily the 3rd greatest player ever. Top 5/6 bowler(ATG at home and in WI, brilliant in England and SL, good in Aus(taking into account his WSC record and 2 brilliant series, and decentish in India(one good series) and NZ(much better than Hadlee in the same tests Miandad took Hadlee apart))+ handy batsmen(much better than Hadlee who is the only one out of bowling ARs comparable in primary skill) + one of the greatest captains ever(test series victories in India and Eng, drawing away and at home with WI)

You know, I thought I straightened you out about this (or something similar):

Ambrose vs Imran, who was better away from home?

I don't think it's fair to outright dismiss series saying he wasn't of international standards.... Marshall also had a bad record in India in '78, but still he more than make up for that. Also, with due respect to Viv and co; that dominance was due to the bowling attack not the batting. I...

www.cricketweb.net

And you seemed to admit you were wrong:

Ambrose vs Imran, who was better away from home?

I don't want to name names but there's a certain poster here in this thread who shall remain unnamed whose first letter is "H" and whose last letter is "n" who has been saying that Imran outperformed Hadlee bowling-wise in NZ. As in kicked Hadlee's hiney. Stuff like "He was goodish in...

www.cricketweb.net

@Coronis was shocked by your admission:



and wanted the evolution in your personal growth to continue:

Ambrose vs Imran, who was better away from home?

I don't want to name names but there's a certain poster here in this thread who shall remain unnamed whose first letter is "H" and whose last letter is "n" who has been saying that Imran outperformed Hadlee bowling-wise in NZ. As in kicked Hadlee's hiney. Stuff like "He was goodish in...

www.cricketweb.net

But I can see that you have reverted to type so I will try again.

Here are Imran's bowling stats in that series (which was played on very, very dead wickets):



7 wickets @ 28.28 in 4 innings, SR 88.5

Now Hadlee:



5 wickets @ 33.80 in 2 innings, SR 98.4

Let's face it, there's stuff all data from which to draw any sensible conclusions but we can look at wicket value:

Imran:

1. Patel (batting average after previous innings: 22.08)

2. Bracewell (22.20)

3. Morrison (7.17)

4. Wright (33.75)

5. Vance (26.00), it wasn't JD!

6. Hadlee (26.76), he showed Paddles who was boss!

7. Smith (25.13)

wicket value = (22.08 + ... + 25.13)/7 = 23.30

This is low in general. Imran's usual wicket value is 29.91:



Hadlee:

1. Rizwan-Uz-Zaman (19.50)

2. Javed Miandad (lbw, 54.95) (he got his nemesis out LBW!!! (of course, it was in NZ, not Pakistan))

3. Shoaib Mohammad (30.57)

4. Saleem Yousuf (32.08)

5. Mudassar Nazar (38.40)

wicket value = (19.50 + ... + 38.40)/5 = 35.1

This is high in general (thanks Javed!). Hadlee's usual wicket value is 29.54 (see last image).

Hadlee's wicket value in the series was 50.6% higher than Imran's so I don't think Hadlee's bowling average being higher than Imran's by 19.5% means too much, especially considering the paltry amount of data.

Edit: I forgot to credit @ankitj for the wicket value image above which I extracted from http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/threads/how-valuable-is-that-wicket.48524/. That post of his probably deserves a few more Likes.

 

[centurymaker]

As I said in another thread Donald’s overall record was considerably affected by his final three tests, all against Australia which douses his record against Australia considerably.

Not that I necessarily disagree with the order you’ve done, just wanted to point this out re: Donald. Increases his average in Australia by a whopping 5 runs and increases his average against them by 4.

Actually here is Donald's average against Australia after every test against them-



It's often been high.

 

[subshakerz]

Felt like he was mentioned once out of the blue re: Gilchrist and Flower and since then there’s been a deluge of posts about him and his opinions.

Yeah I brought him up since it was the first time I heard someone say Flower was a better keeper.

 

[subshakerz]

You know, I thought I straightened you out about this (or something similar):

Ambrose vs Imran, who was better away from home?

I don't think it's fair to outright dismiss series saying he wasn't of international standards.... Marshall also had a bad record in India in '78, but still he more than make up for that. Also, with due respect to Viv and co; that dominance was due to the bowling attack not the batting. I...

www.cricketweb.net

And you seemed to admit you were wrong:

Ambrose vs Imran, who was better away from home?

I don't want to name names but there's a certain poster here in this thread who shall remain unnamed whose first letter is "H" and whose last letter is "n" who has been saying that Imran outperformed Hadlee bowling-wise in NZ. As in kicked Hadlee's hiney. Stuff like "He was goodish in...

www.cricketweb.net

@Coronis was shocked by your admission:

View attachment 42943

and wanted the evolution in your personal growth to continue:

Ambrose vs Imran, who was better away from home?

I don't want to name names but there's a certain poster here in this thread who shall remain unnamed whose first letter is "H" and whose last letter is "n" who has been saying that Imran outperformed Hadlee bowling-wise in NZ. As in kicked Hadlee's hiney. Stuff like "He was goodish in...

www.cricketweb.net

But I can see that you have reverted to type so I will try again.

Here are Imran's bowling stats in that series (which was played on very, very dead wickets):

View attachment 42944

7 wickets @ 28.28 in 4 innings, SR 88.5

Now Hadlee:

View attachment 42945

5 wickets @ 33.80 in 2 innings, SR 98.4

Let's face it, there's stuff all data from which to draw any sensible conclusions but we can look at wicket value:

Imran:

1. Patel (batting average after previous innings: 22.08)

2. Bracewell (22.20)

3. Morrison (7.17)

4. Wright (33.75)

5. Vance (26.00), it wasn't JD!

6. Hadlee (26.76), he showed Paddles who was boss!

7. Smith (25.13)

wicket value = (22.08 + ... + 25.13)/7 = 23.30

This is low in general. Imran's usual wicket value is 29.91:

View attachment 42946

Hadlee:

1. Rizwan-Uz-Zaman (19.50)

2. Javed Miandad (lbw, 54.95) (he got his nemesis out LBW!!! (of course, it was in NZ, not Pakistan))

3. Shoaib Mohammad (30.57)

4. Saleem Yousuf (32.08)

5. Mudassar Nazar (38.40)

wicket value = (19.50 + ... + 38.40)/5 = 35.1

This is high in general (thanks Javed!). Hadlee's usual wicket value is 29.54 (see last image).

Hadlee's wicket value in the series was 50.6% higher than Imran's so I don't think Hadlee's bowling average being higher than Imran's by 19.5% means too much, especially considering the paltry amount of data.

Edit: I forgot to credit @ankitj for the wicket value image above which I extracted from http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/threads/how-valuable-is-that-wicket.48524/. That post of his probably deserves a few more Likes.

I don't see the point of the argument as both bowlers were neutralised. But Hadlee was at home...

 

[Swamp Witch Hattie]

I don't see the point of the argument as both bowlers were neutralised. But Hadlee was at home...

The point of the argument is that @HouHsiaoHsien has said (on several occasions I believe even after being corrected and admitting that he was wrong) that Imran in common tests in NZ with Hadlee bowled better than Hadlee and it's simply not true. I got tired of continuing to let it pass.

 

[subshakerz]

The point of the argument is that @HouHsiaoHsien has said (on several occasions I believe even after being corrected and admitting that he was wrong) that Imran in common tests in NZ with Hadlee bowled better than Hadlee and it's simply not true. I got tired of continuing to let it pass.

Imran did slightly by virtue of being an away player, but like I said it doesn't matter since neither made any real dent.

 

[Swamp Witch Hattie]

Imran did slightly by virtue of being an away player, but like I said it doesn't matter since neither made any real dent.

Now you're reaching. And @HouHsiaoHsien didn't just say "better" but "much better" which is nonsense.

 

[subshakerz]

Now you're reaching. And @HouHsiaoHsien didn't just say "better" but "much better" which is nonsense.

Look at it innings by innings, Imran was slightly more effective.

 

[Swamp Witch Hattie]

Look at it innings by innings, Imran was slightly more effective.

No way:

Hadlee (just two bowling innings, broke down after 1/68 in the second Test, WPI = 2.5):



Imran (four bowling innings, really just three so either WPI = 1.75 or 2.33)



And, as I said, Hadlee's wicket value was 50.6% higher.

Ironically, I think this is somewhat related to your other post about a side's better batting helping that side's bowlers as Imran got more bowling innings in!

 

[subshakerz]

No way:

Hadlee (just two bowling innings, broke down after 1/68 in the second Test, WPI = 2.5):

View attachment 42952

Imran (four bowling innings, really just three so either WPI = 1.75 or 2.33)

View attachment 42953

And, as I said, Hadlee's wicket value was 50.6% higher.

Ironically, I think this is somewhat related to your other post about a side's better batting helping that side's bowlers as Imran got more bowling innings in!

Dude you need to look beyond just raw averages.

 

[Swamp Witch Hattie]

Dude you need to look beyond just raw averages.

You've got to be kidding me! I'm taking the quality of the batsmen dismissed into account. What are you bringing to the table?

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

You know, I thought I straightened you out about this (or something similar):

Ambrose vs Imran, who was better away from home?

I don't think it's fair to outright dismiss series saying he wasn't of international standards.... Marshall also had a bad record in India in '78, but still he more than make up for that. Also, with due respect to Viv and co; that dominance was due to the bowling attack not the batting. I...

www.cricketweb.net

And you seemed to admit you were wrong:

Ambrose vs Imran, who was better away from home?

I don't want to name names but there's a certain poster here in this thread who shall remain unnamed whose first letter is "H" and whose last letter is "n" who has been saying that Imran outperformed Hadlee bowling-wise in NZ. As in kicked Hadlee's hiney. Stuff like "He was goodish in...

www.cricketweb.net

@Coronis was shocked by your admission:

View attachment 42943

and wanted the evolution in your personal growth to continue:

Ambrose vs Imran, who was better away from home?

I don't want to name names but there's a certain poster here in this thread who shall remain unnamed whose first letter is "H" and whose last letter is "n" who has been saying that Imran outperformed Hadlee bowling-wise in NZ. As in kicked Hadlee's hiney. Stuff like "He was goodish in...

www.cricketweb.net

But I can see that you have reverted to type so I will try again.

Here are Imran's bowling stats in that series (which was played on very, very dead wickets):

View attachment 42944

7 wickets @ 28.28 in 4 innings, SR 88.5

Now Hadlee:

View attachment 42945

5 wickets @ 33.80 in 2 innings, SR 98.4

Let's face it, there's stuff all data from which to draw any sensible conclusions but we can look at wicket value:

Imran:

1. Patel (batting average after previous innings: 22.08)

2. Bracewell (22.20)

3. Morrison (7.17)

4. Wright (33.75)

5. Vance (26.00), it wasn't JD!

6. Hadlee (26.76), he showed Paddles who was boss!

7. Smith (25.13)

wicket value = (22.08 + ... + 25.13)/7 = 23.30

This is low in general. Imran's usual wicket value is 29.91:

View attachment 42946

Hadlee:

1. Rizwan-Uz-Zaman (19.50)

2. Javed Miandad (lbw, 54.95) (he got his nemesis out LBW!!! (of course, it was in NZ, not Pakistan))

3. Shoaib Mohammad (30.57)

4. Saleem Yousuf (32.08)

5. Mudassar Nazar (38.40)

wicket value = (19.50 + ... + 38.40)/5 = 35.1

This is high in general (thanks Javed!). Hadlee's usual wicket value is 29.54 (see last image).

Hadlee's wicket value in the series was 50.6% higher than Imran's so I don't think Hadlee's bowling average being higher than Imran's by 19.5% means too much, especially considering the paltry amount of data.

Edit: I forgot to credit @ankitj for the wicket value image above which I extracted from http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/threads/how-valuable-is-that-wicket.48524/. That post of his probably deserves a few more Likes.

Fair enough. However still my larger point about him being the 5th/6th best bowler and the 3rd best player stands

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

The point of the argument is that @HouHsiaoHsien has said (on several occasions I believe even after being corrected and admitting that he was wrong) that Imran in common tests in NZ with Hadlee bowled better than Hadlee and it's simply not true. I got tired of continuing to let it pass.

Kindly forgive my grave trespass

 

[subshakerz]

You've got to be kidding me! I'm taking the quality of the batsmen dismissed into account. What are you bringing to the table?

I am saying both series were drawn and neither bowler could force a result so it's haggling over small things. But their tallies are somewhat equal, Imran a bit better average, so I would give credit to Imran as an overseas bowler more to match Hadlee there in his own conditions.

That unreasonable sir?

 

[Swamp Witch Hattie]

I am saying both series were drawn and neither bowler could force a result so it's haggling over small things. But their tallies are somewhat equal, Imran a bit better average, so I would give credit to Imran as an overseas bowler more to match Hadlee there in his own conditions.

That unreasonable sir?

You do realise that my key objection was @HouHsiaoHsien repeatedly claiming that Imran's bowling in NZ was "much better" than Hadlee's? And I'm sure you would agree with me there, right, that his position (now changed forever until the next memory lapse ;-) is untenable? The indeterminate nature of whether Imran's or Hadlee's bowling was better (it's a moot point) was NOT what my original post was about. That was an unfortunate detour that the discussion took.

 

[subshakerz]

You do realise that my key objection was @HouHsiaoHsien repeatedly claiming that Imran's bowling in NZ was "much better" than Hadlee's? And I'm sure you would agree with me there, right, that his position (now changed forever until the next memory lapse ;-) is untenable? The indeterminate nature of whether Imran's or Hadlee's bowling was better (it's a moot point) was NOT what my original post was about. That was an unfortunate detour that the discussion took.

Sure.

You're too nice a poster for me to disagree with for any sustained length of time.

 

[Swamp Witch Hattie]

Sure.

You're too nice a poster for me to disagree with for any sustained length of time.

Unlike @kyear2, I presume? LOL!