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Imran Khan vs Viv Richards

Greater cricketer?

  • Total voters
    22
DrWolverine

DrWolverine

U19 Debutant
Imran Khan wins because he is an all rounder and being a captain of a Pakistan team is more challenging than being a captain of any other team

In terms of stature, aura, ability to dominate the opposition, there will never be another Viv Richards
 
ataraxia

ataraxia

International Coach
BazBall21 said:
Lots of not outs too
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Fun fact: not outs nerf averages. The number of extra runs you are expected to get in addition to your score at a specific point is higher when that score is higher. If you're on 0, your average expected RPI might be about 30 but once you've moved to 10 it won't be 40; it might be more like 45 or 50. Not outs cut promising innings short, in much the same way that your life expectancy whatever age you are now is higher than the average life expectancy figure reported at your birth.

Obviously not outs can also point to other effects on difficulty of batting, like declarations on flat tracks or running out of partners or even selfish batting (which I don't think Imran has been accused of). But one cannot make a statement that "not outs boost averages" based on a sample size of 19 in the same way that you can't evaluate a batter after 19 innings. That claim always requires innings-by-innings analysis.
 
BazBall21

BazBall21

International Captain
ataraxia said:
Fun fact: not outs nerf averages. The number of extra runs you are expected to get in addition to your score at a specific point is higher when that score is higher. If you're on 0, your average expected RPI might be about 30 but once you've moved to 10 it won't be 40; it might be more like 45 or 50. Not outs cut promising innings short, in much the same way that your life expectancy whatever age you are now is higher than the average life expectancy figure reported at your birth.

Obviously not outs can also point to other effects on difficulty of batting, like declarations on flat tracks or running out of partners or even selfish batting (which I don't think Imran has been accused of). But one cannot make a statement that "not outs boost averages" based on a sample size of 19 in the same way that you can't evaluate a batter after 19 innings. That claim always requires innings-by-innings analysis.
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There is also the home/away split, batting lower and flatter pitches in Pakistan. Imran is better overall though.
 
BazBall21

BazBall21

International Captain
The need for innings by innings analysis is a good point. I think Imran was a decent supporting batsman that had limitations on seaming&bouncing wickets and consistently played at the high end of his maximum threshold. Middle order support acts like him and Jadeja tend to get a lot of not outs whereas middle order players in the vein of Botham and Cairns don't.

I get your point that sometimes not outs prevent run maximisation. Imran wasn't overly explosive with the lower order which a middle order player generally needs to be for maximisation as the lower order can't hang around forever and lower orders generally weren't as strong back then so time was even more sparse. Imran would have more time for maximisation if he batted higher up, but he might well have suffered more cheap dismissals against fresher bowlers with the newish ball. When batting 5-6, the odd not out comes from declaration innings/small chases which does unfair harm to RPI.
 
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OverratedSanity

OverratedSanity

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ataraxia said:
Fun fact: not outs nerf averages. The number of extra runs you are expected to get in addition to your score at a specific point is higher when that score is higher. If you're on 0, your average expected RPI might be about 30 but once you've moved to 10 it won't be 40; it might be more like 45 or 50. Not outs cut promising innings short, in much the same way that your life expectancy whatever age you are now is higher than the average life expectancy figure reported at your birth.

Obviously not outs can also point to other effects on difficulty of batting, like declarations on flat tracks or running out of partners or even selfish batting (which I don't think Imran has been accused of). But one cannot make a statement that "not outs boost averages" based on a sample size of 19 in the same way that you can't evaluate a batter after 19 innings. That claim always requires innings-by-innings analysis.
Click to expand...
If your RPI is lower you've literally scored fewer runs for the team. It doesn't really require an innings by innings analysis. Most other factors being the same, if there's a significant difference in RPI (presumably due to not outs), then I'm going to say the player with fewer not outs (but higher RPI) is actually better, because he contributed more.

The claim is not actually that "not outs inflate average", it's that "not outs show an inflated view of your actual contribution".
 
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