England in New Zealand 28 Nov-18 Dec 2024 - 3 Tests

[Mike5181]

You can't really drop anyone in the top 6-7 realistically. Sure Young is in great form and it sucks that he'll miss out but you can't average 26, have one good series in Indian conditions, and then demand selection over guys with great allround records like Phillips or Mitchell. Just not happening. Plus injuries happen, he'll probably get a test or two anyway.

 

[jcas0167]

Yeah, as well as Young has batted Phillips' all-round value makes him an automatic selection imo. The commentators in India mentioned how many revs he puts on the ball. He seemed to do pretty well with the ball against Australia and the figures mentioned above back up how effective he has been. Which sucks for Young who was fantastic in India.

 

[SteveNZ]

It's great to see people debating this in the general social media space, but there is a hell of a lot of 'drop Blundell, play Young, Latham/Conway keeps'...which overlooks the fact that Conway is too sloppy to be a T20 keeper let alone a Test one, plus is too much to expect to keep + open - as it is for Latham, who also captains. Moss is right, as a one-off it might fly if it has to, but it's not a series-long strategy.

Something that I also saw on social media was Mark Richardson saying Will Young hadn't done enough to unseat anyone in that side, and I agree.

His last 10 matches and scores are archetypal Will Young: 56*, 26, 48, 30, 19, 71, 51, 18, 23, 33, 48*, 2, 17, 19, 68*. If you make it Tests over the last 12 months, it's 36, 60*, 9, 15, 14, 1, 33, 48*, 18, 23, 71, 51.

That's a guy who hits it well, but just gets out. Golden opportunity there to turn some of those into hundreds, and put significant pressure on positions, but we're not going likely going to beat England without big top order scores.

 

[NZTailender]

I'd drop Mitchell or Conway before I'd drop Phillips.

Also I know it's irresistible to treat him as an all rounder, and I'm sure he seems himself that way, but he should be treated as a batsman and part time bowler imo. I just don't think we'll see the best of his batting if more emphasis is continued to be placed on his bowling.

I guess the headache Wells and Stead have is they actually have a bunch of guys they could put in the XI but no room for them unless you move an experienced player from their preferred position (Latham, Williamson) or drop guys who kinda have been in poor form long term but have been showing good return to form (Mitchell, Conway).

The elephant in the room being Blundell who by all rights the team should move on from but it doesn't solve where GP and Young fit in because you still need a WK (except that GP should be at 6 not the WK).

 

[NZTailender]

It's great to see people debating this in the general social media space, but there is a hell of a lot of 'drop Blundell, play Young, Latham/Conway keeps'...which overlooks the fact that Conway is too sloppy to be a T20 keeper let alone a Test one, plus is too much to expect to keep + open - as it is for Latham, who also captains. Moss is right, as a one-off it might fly if it has to, but it's not a series-long strategy.

Something that I also saw on social media was Mark Richardson saying Will Young hadn't done enough to unseat anyone in that side, and I agree.

His last 10 matches and scores are archetypal Will Young: 56*, 26, 48, 30, 19, 71, 51, 18, 23, 33, 48*, 2, 17, 19, 68*. If you make it Tests over the last 12 months, it's 36, 60*, 9, 15, 14, 1, 33, 48*, 18, 23, 71, 51.

That's a guy who hits it well, but just gets out. Golden opportunity there to turn some of those into hundreds, and put significant pressure on positions, but we're not going likely going to beat England without big top order scores.

I guess Phillips gets the excuse of his batting position because he's played more innings than young with the same amount of 50s and a lower average in the same time period. I feel for Will Young because the standard he's being held to to unseat incumbents is only being reached by Williamson and Ravindra, with Young statistically the third best batsman in this period without the mental luxury of certainty in his position in the team. But yet at the same time he hasn't been undeniably dominant enough to really push Latham, Conway or Mitchell out.

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

I do think his in Indian 50s are basically hundreds given the context and shouldn't be relegated to the same pretty starts he's been getting elsewhere round the world.

 

[SteveNZ]

I guess Phillips gets the excuse of his batting position because he's played more innings than young with the same amount of 50s and a lower average in the same time period. I feel for Will Young because the standard he's being held to to unseat incumbents is only being reached by Williamson and Ravindra, with Young statistically the third best batsman in this period without the mental luxury of certainty in his position in the team. But yet at the same time he hasn't been undeniably dominant enough to really push Latham, Conway or Mitchell out.

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

I do think his in Indian 50s are basically hundreds given the context and shouldn't be relegated to the same pretty starts he's been getting elsewhere round the world.

I tend to agree...the only caveat being that he's renowned for unconverted 50s. If he wasn't, they would look even stronger.

And I think his career has been horribly mismanaged, a real could have been for a guy of his talent. But having said that, he's not made the most of the opportunities when presented.

 

[straw man]

Phillips is pretty much new Colin de Grandhomme. When CdG was first picked for NZ I complained a few times that number 7 below the wicketkeeper was a bits-and-pieces spot, and if we were serious he should bat 6 and be a part time bowler. But then NZ stubbornly batted him at 7 his whole career and it worked out fine anyway. Expect the same for Phillips. There are a heap of similarities really:

• Batting allrounder in some conditions, a bowling allrounder in others.
• Bowling looks like it shouldn't work, but it does.
• Bowling can hold up an end and is genuinely dangerous in some conditions.
• Homegrown batting technique.
• Good at icing an innings.
• Can counterattack with bat when NZ under pressure.
• Batting can also be horribly frustrating and leave you shaking your head.
• Bit of an oddball.
• CW cult following.

Good to have Glenn de Phillipshomme in the side imo. I would not drop him for this series to fit in Will Young.

 

[NZTailender]

I think overall Phillips is a better batsman than CdG imo, and that's not to underrate CdG either. I think we won't get the best out of Phillips batting him below 5 and that's his ideal position for mine, which Mitchell has had sewn up for a while but he's not going to be around forever.

Reckon he could easily be a 45+ bat average at 5 whilst maintaining a bowling average around 35 if he's treated as a batsman first

 

[straw man]

He could/should be a better batsman than CDG though I don't think it's a sure thing. CDG's career average was also a surprisingly high 38.7.

 

[Zinzan]

He could/should be a better batsman than CDG though I don't think it's a sure thing. CDG's career average was also a surprisingly high 38.7.

Yeah, Phillips has some way to go to be considered a better Test bat than de Grandhomme, who not only averaged 39, but did so with a SR >80 which is up there with a select few.

Underrated cricketer by some de Grandhomme, but not by me.

 

[Zinzan]

Reckon he could easily be a 45+ bat average at 5 whilst maintaining a bowling average around 35 if he's treated as a batsman first

Honestly mate, that's a pipedream and ain't going to happen unless there's a complete makeover of his technique. The fact he continuously plays back to fuller deliveries on spinning tracks making him a strong bowled/LBW candidate, says it all really.

 

[ataraxia]

Honestly mate, that's a pipedream and ain't going to happen unless there's a complete makeover of his technique. The fact he continuously plays back to fuller deliveries on spinning tracks making him a strong bowled/LBW candidate, says it all really.

>Glenn Phillips
>complete makeover of his technique

hmm

 

[NZTailender]

Yeah, Phillips has some way to go to be considered a better Test bat than de Grandhomme, who not only averaged 39, but did so with a SR >80 which is up there with a select few.

Underrated cricketer by some de Grandhomme, but not by me.

You can't really compare the two batsmen considering Phillips is really just starting his test career properly, but CdG benefitted from home tests where he averaged an impressive 51. De grandhomme played 'away' 6 times for an average of 31 and 4 'neutrals' for an average of 10. So 10 games away from home across his career whilst Phillips has already played 8 away tests for an average of 39, but just 4 games at home for a weak average of 22.

I loved CdG. He was a great counterattacking batsman to have at number 7 and he managed to troll quite a few wickets with his military mediums including Steve Smith lbw. But I don't look at his career through rose tinted glasses and not pretend he didn't feast massively on weaker West Indian, Sri Lankan and Bangladeshi sides - though acknowledge he did well against England and South Africa. Very poor vs India, Australia and Pakistan tho.

 

[Prince EWS]

Honestly mate, that's a pipedream and ain't going to happen unless there's a complete makeover of his technique. The fact he continuously plays back to fuller deliveries on spinning tracks making him a strong bowled/LBW candidate, says it all really.

He's barely played at home so far and half of those games were against Australia as well. I can definitely see him filling his boots in the engine room across his career like Colin used to do (he averaged 51 at home), especially since spin in New Zealand isn't real.

 

[Prince EWS]

You can't really compare the two batsmen considering Phillips is really just starting his test career properly, but CdG benefitted from home tests where he averaged an impressive 51. De grandhomme played 'away' 6 times for an average of 31 and 4 'neutrals' for an average of 10. So 10 games away from home across his career whilst Phillips has already played 8 away tests for an average of 39, but just 4 games at home for a weak average of 22.

I loved CdG. He was a great counterattacking batsman to have at number 7 and he managed to troll quite a few wickets with his military mediums including Steve Smith lbw. But I don't look at his career through rose tinted glasses and not pretend he didn't feast massively on weaker West Indian, Sri Lankan and Bangladeshi sides - though acknowledge he did well against England and South Africa. Very poor vs India, Australia and Pakistan tho.

Haha wow we made two such similar points at the same time. Even referenced CdG's 51 average.

 

[ataraxia]

Haha wow we made two such similar points at the same time. Even referenced CdG's 51 average.

Better average and more powerful than Viv Richards.

 

[Flem274*]

CdG got declared on so many times when he was putting the Stokes into some helpless team on the floor.

 

[SteveNZ]

I think it's underestimated by some as to how good CdG's technique was. He was really one of our better equipped technical players of the modern era - more so than guys who have batted in the top 4-5 like Mitchell, Taylor etc. That might have got lost in his approach to the game. With a different head on his shoulders, he would have been a 45+ average guy in the top 4-5.

Was also pigeon holed as a coloured clothes player early on which belied the fact those who saw him bat at all levels knew he was better equipped in the long game, where fields were more suited to him, he didn't feel like he had to go berserk and lose his head, and still had the technique to succeed. Was also ideal against the 2nd new ball for that reason

 

[hendrix]

loved Lord Colin. Exceptional bowler in the right conditions, and even on flat surfaces I felt he could do a decent job.

RE: Glenn Philips. It's possible I'm under-appreciating his batting skills having been burned by similar-appearing players previously - the likes of Corey Anderson, James Neesham, Colin Munro etc.

 

[thierry henry]

Phillips has a very similar sort of batting record across the formats and I have this bad feeling that he might just be a 31-34 average guy given that's his average in ODI, List A, T20, T20I and tests. But then he averages 40+ in FC so this post is just deliberately bad analysis and I have wasted everyone's time by making it.