Brian Lara vs Sunil Gavaskar

[centurymaker]

I said that they had in common and Sachin had an ok series and one horror series vs Donald and co. His age is irrelevant. Of course he never played the WWs away in the 90s. And vs Bond he was just as poor.

You give Lara in his prime, away series to the Aus, NZ, Ban, Pak, SL, etc that existed in the 2000s, that Ramesh feasted on, his stocks would've likely risen.

Stats aren't absolute, they are relative!
You are calling his 1992 series in SA a "horror" show? (aged 19)

Look at the top run scorers that series-



And now vs Bond-
Look at the bloody scores. Hardly anyone is even averaging 20.




It was Lara who feasted in the 00s, not necessarily Tendulkar who was bloody injured and out of form in 00s. And when he did hit another purple patch he was in his late 30s (past his peak).

 

[Slifer]

Stats aren't absolute, they are relative!
You are calling his 1992 series in SA a "horror" show? (aged 19)

Look at the top run scorers that series-

View attachment 42548

And now vs Bond-
Look at the bloody scores. Hardly anyone is even averaging 20.


View attachment 42549

It was Lara who feasted in the 00s, not necessarily Tendulkar who was bloody injured and out of form in 00s. And when he did hit another purple patch he was in his late 30s (past his peak).

The point is they both failed away to Donald and Bond. You can move the goal post any which way you feel, doesn't change that fact. And they both capitalized on diminished attacks post 2000. Lara was injured in the 2000s as well or are we to forget the elbow he dislocated following that collision in SL.

 

[Slifer]

Just so we're clear, Lara was very good outside WI not great, nothing more nothing less. He was a level below the likes of Waugh, Sachin, Viv hell even Dravid and Smith. But i take issue with the implication by a certain poster (they know who they are) that he had it easy or padded his stats. How the hell do you pad stats without playing against trash attacks like Bangladesh or 2000s WI. Or how do you pad stats being the only world class batman in a WI batting lineup....

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

look at those 50s numbers, see why Hutton is HIM

No question really. He became an undisputed top 10, arguably in the top 5,6 ish with an injury. Could well have been very strong candidate for that no.2 spot without it. I guess you could still make some argument for him though I wouldn’t agree tbh.

 

[capt_Luffy]

how come Viv came over Lara and Imran in your greatest cricketers list

ODI GoAT

 

[OverratedSanity]

You can move the goal post any which way you feel, doesn't change that fact.

He didn't move the goalpost. He actually directly responded to the claim that Tendulkar had a horror show of a series vs Donald in 92 (no way can a series where he scored a brilliant 111 out of a team total of 220 odd against a lightning quick Donald as a teenager be called that) and that he was poor vs bond when he was one of the top scorers in one of the lowest scoring series of all time.

I don't care for the rest of the debate but it was pretty clear you just called those series bad by looking at the averages with zero idea of the context.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Does batting get any better in terms of sheer visceral delight? Even Vivian Richards was shocked at how brutal Lara was

 

[OverratedSanity]

One of the most hype innings I've ever watched. Was a real air of anticipation when he walked out (even more than usual) because of what he'd done in the previous two tests. He got the last 70 runs in this knock in 35 balls or something crazy like that.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Viv's record against the Carribbean pacers in FC isn't really Great either (averages 37 when facing atleast one of Marshall, Holding, Roberts, Garner, Croft, Clarke, Daniels, Walsh, Ambrose, Gray, Bishop or Moseley). Why I am bringing this? Because I think if Viv's stature as the best player of pace on spicy tracks is more or less solely on Lillee and Thomson, then a few players can match upto him imo. Probably still place him at 1, but it's more arguable.

Yeah this and the fact that Viv didn't have to face the quartet at all makes me think the gap between them in terms of playing pace isnt really massive.

Plus there's the fact that gavaskar was an opener which is just a far tougher job to do. He wasn't absolute top tier like viv vs pace but I wouldn't take their numbers vs atg pacers completely at face value.

 

[BazBall21]

Yeah this and the fact that Viv didn't have to face the quartet at all makes me think the gap between them in terms of playing pace isnt really massive.

Plus there's the fact that gavaskar was an opener which is just a far tougher job to do. He wasn't absolute top tier like viv vs pace but I wouldn't take their numbers vs atg pacers completely at face value.

To be fair Viv succeeded in the top 3.

 

[OverratedSanity]

To be fair Viv succeeded in the top 3.

Absolutely, and even did well opening in Australia vs Lillee and Thomson in 75/76. Just saying a whole career of opening rather than coming in behind Greenidge/Haynes is just a way harder job afaic.

Only talking difficulty, viv was obviously better.

 

[subshakerz]

The point is they both failed away to Donald and Bond. You can move the goal post any which way you feel, doesn't change that fact. And they both capitalized on diminished attacks post 2000. Lara was injured in the 2000s as well or are we to forget the elbow he dislocated following that collision in SL.

You're so desperate man to call Tendulkars series as a teen against Donald a fail.

The point is Tendulkar simply was more consistent and I have shown you, didn't outright fail away from home against top attack plus had great series against such attacks that Lara did not.

 

[subshakerz]

Yeah this and the fact that Viv didn't have to face the quartet at all makes me think the gap between them in terms of playing pace isnt really massive.

Plus there's the fact that gavaskar was an opener which is just a far tougher job to do. He wasn't absolute top tier like viv vs pace but I wouldn't take their numbers vs atg pacers completely at face value.

Gavaskar being an opener in a tough era certainly helps to even the odds a bit though Viv was no.3.

However, bringing up Vivs first class domestic record doesn't much change things for me.

 

[subshakerz]

Just so we're clear, Lara was very good outside WI not great, nothing more nothing less. He was a level below the likes of Waugh, Sachin, Viv hell even Dravid and Smith. But i take issue with the implication by a certain poster (they know who they are) that he had it easy or padded his stats. How the hell do you pad stats without playing against trash attacks like Bangladesh or 2000s WI. Or how do you pad stats being the only world class batman in a WI batting lineup....

Semantics. You agree with my point.

 

[BazBall21]

Gavaskar being an opener in a tough era certainly helps to even the odds a bit though Viv was no.3.

However, bringing up Vivs first class domestic record doesn't much change things for me.

I'd also say Viv had tougher wickets at home than Gavaskar generally. Obviously the difficulty was reduced by not having to face his own machine attack.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I'd also say Viv had tougher wickets at home than Gavaskar generally. Obviously the difficulty was reduced by not having to face his own machine attack.

WI did had it's fair share of flat tracks and turners and some pitches like Bengaluru and Chennai were outright poor in general. Slight home pitch advantage to Viv, but not enough to merit much discussion imho.

 

[BazBall21]

WI did had it's fair share of flat tracks and turners and some pitches like Bengaluru and Chennai were outright poor in general. Slight home pitch advantage to Viv, but not enough to merit much discussion imho.

Not a perfect metric but the runs-per-wicket at those grounds in matches involving Gavaskar was 34. That's not low at all. Sabina Park, Kensington Oval and Port of Spain were all generally difficult in Viv's time. Bourda and Antigua not so much but he played a very low percentage of his home innings there.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Not a perfect metric but the runs-per-wicket at those grounds in matches involving Gavaskar was 34. That's not low at all. Sabina Park, Kensington Oval and Port of Spain were all generally difficult in Viv's time. Bourda and Antigua not so much but he played a very low percentage of his home innings there.

They were largely difficult for the Quarter though. Desmond Haynes does have a better average than Viv at home, and Greenidge is also close. Those grounds were the first to come to mind due to some particular matches, but I am pretty confident rank turners weren't all that rare back then either.

 

[BazBall21]

They were largely difficult for the Quarter though. Desmond Haynes does have a better average than Viv at home, and Greenidge is also close. Those grounds were the first to come to mind due to some particular matches, but I am pretty confident rank turners weren't all that rare back then either.

Haynes' home record is underappreciated imo.

There were some good opposition spinners in the 70s but not so much in the 80s. Think Underwood had a lot of success v Gavaskar.