Jack Hobbs vs Sachin Tendulkar

[HouHsiaoHsien]

You called it overrated. I assume you checked back and found that it was not. At.least Luffy calls it ATG.


You realise that Roberts also wasn't in one game when Gavaskar scored a ton in 76?

I am just saying that Miandad had two series, early career in which he struggled and 88 in which he did better than Gavaskar ever did.

It's fine if you want to give Gavaskar more points for WI, but admit it's because of his runs against mid attacks.


Thommo wasnt the Thommo that we know.

I just showed Miandad did better relatively against Lillee and played better attacks in Aus.

Again, you can argue Sunny was better overall in Australia given the run difference, but acknowledge it's because of runs against lesser attacks.

No I didn’t. I said his away record outside Hadlee is overrated. A debut series that has a bat scored 770 odd runs in an away win against a formidable opponent is always important. I won’t rate Miandad basis two good matches vs Marshall and Co(in one of which he failed) over Gavaskar in WI because of that. And no you have Thommo(and Wayne Clark’s) performance to show for it in that series.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

P

There is no way the attacks for the two tons of Gavaskar in 76 match up to those of Miandad in 88.


You can give credit to a 50 but not Miandad in 81?


Miandad is easily the best against Hadlee in NZ which is more impressive given the wickets there. His record in India is good enough to not be used against him.

The reason it isn't close in the other countries is Gavaskar lining his pockets against lesser attacks. He faced the peak WI attack, Lillee and prime Hadlee in single series each of which he didn't score. So if we put Gavaskar ahead, it's because he got lucky enough to score when it was easier, which is fine.

Gavaskar had an ATG series vs Willis and peak Botham in England, Imran and Qadir in Pak, the quartet at home(where Marshall and Holding took 30+ wickets each). If you’re trying to convince me that any of Miandad’s away series match to the 83 series Gavaskar had at home against peak Marshall and Holding, it’s not gonna work

 

[subshakerz]

Marshall was just back from injury, Ambrose was a debutant and frankly quite bad and Walsh was pretty much an enforcer back then, doing heavy lifting.

Do you have any info that Marshall was below par in the 2nd test?

Just a reminder that Walsh at that point had 71 wickets in 17 games@21. So no, wasn't just an enforcer.

Walsh, Ambrose and Patterson are better than a raw Holding and no nothing's in that test.

You mean the match in which Pakistan scored 624??

How about the ton that Pak won in NZ in 79?

I give Miandad credit for that ton (which he scored one in the 11 matches he played vs Lillee), but you are watching cricket with you bum if you think Gavaskar's 70 in a 4th innings successful chase isn't better.

I don't care if you think Gavaskar did as well against Lillee just admit that Gavaskar took advantage of him not being in the attack. The 86 series that bumped his average there in Aus was a buffet for him.

 

[subshakerz]

A debut series that has a bat scored 770 odd runs in an away win against a formidable opponent is always important. I won’t rate Miandad basis two good matches vs Marshall and Co(in one of which he failed) over Gavaskar in WI because of that.

That's fine you can accept that Gavaskar runs outside the main WI pacers give him the better WI record.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Even if Miandad had a better series in WI than any of Gavaskar’s there, it doesn’t make sense to rank him above Gavaskar there. Gavaskar failed vs the quartet, but had a great series as a debutant and did well vs Holding and Roberts in 76. Bigger sample size

 

[capt_Luffy]

Do you have any info that Marshall was below par in the 2nd test?

Just a reminder that Walsh at that point had 71 wickets in 17 games@21. So no, wasn't just an enforcer.

Walsh, Ambrose and Patterson are better than a raw Holding and no nothing's in that test.


How about the ton that Pak won in NZ in 79?


I don't care if you think Gavaskar did as well against Lillee just admit that Gavaskar took advantage of him not being in the attack. The 86 series that bumped his average there in Aus was a buffet for him.

Again, was it scored against Lillee???
When I said Gavaskar's Australia average (of 54) isn't bumped!?? I just said what you're saying is flat out wrong.

 

[Johan]

Yes I believe that is called a breakthrough series. It doesn't mean Holding was a worldclass bowler at that point in 76.

In the India series he took 19 wickets at 19.89 with 43 Strike rate, that's also kind of a breakthrough series if you ask me

 

[capt_Luffy]

Even if Miandad had a better series in WI than any of Gavaskar’s there, it doesn’t make sense to rank him above Gavaskar there. Gavaskar failed vs the quartet, but had a great series as a debutant and did well vs Holding and Roberts in 76. Bigger sample size

Gavaskar literally averages twice as much as Miandad in WI!

 

[subshakerz]

Even if Miandad had a better series in WI than any of Gavaskar’s there, it doesn’t make sense to rank him above Gavaskar there. Gavaskar failed vs the quartet, but had a great series as a debutant and did well vs Holding and Roberts in 76. Bigger sample size

I am saying it's a reasonable stance to put Gavaskar in WI ahead based on 71 and 76. I only brought the 88 series to suggest that it's not like Miandad was a bigger failure against WI top pacers in their own backyard since he has a series outside his early career one better than Gavaskar.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I loved this thread when it was of Sachin and Hobbs much more. It was a good thread and it turned to one of the worst Thread hijacks. I am sorry for that.

 

[subshakerz]

I loved this thread when it was of Sachin and Hobbs much more. It was a good thread and it turned to one of the worst Thread hijacks. I am sorry for that.

It's okay let's redirect back to Tendulkar love.

 

[Johan]

I loved this thread when it was of Sachin and Hobbs much more. It was a good thread and it turned to one of the worst Thread hijacks. I am sorry for that.

we ****ed up

 

[subshakerz]

P

Gavaskar had an ATG series vs Willis and peak Botham in England, Imran and Qadir in Pak, the quartet at home(where Marshall and Holding took 30+ wickets each). If you’re trying to convince me that any of Miandad’s away series match to the 83 series Gavaskar had at home against peak Marshall and Holding, it’s not gonna work

I'm not.

 

[BazBall21]

No he wasn't!! Thommo bowled peak that series and averaged low 20s. Wayne Clarke partnered him perfectly with blatant chucking. It was Legitimately lower scoring than the 81 tour with Lillee.
Except that ATG series, Gavaskar's last tour of England was pretty good and his second series there had plenty silver linings. He failed in the other two, but one was when he was very young. Miandad played much weaker bowling in general there to average 6 runs more.
Miandad is ATG in NZ, but that's about it.
Gavaskar in 76 and 71 both better than Miandad in 87. One has 3 great innings in 4 matches against Holding and Roberts, pushing them ultimately over the edge to implement the 4 pacers attack and the other series saw him score the 3rd most runs in a series. You just want to see what you want to see here. Especially love how for England it's overall spread of runs across series but for WI, it turns to the better series (which Miandad even doesn't gets).

Gavaskar is better than Miandad but I'd rate Miandad in 1988 WI ahead of any Gavaskar tour there.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Gavaskar is better than Miandad but I'd rate Miandad in 1988 WI ahead of any Gavaskar tour there.

LATD. I would rate 76 higher.

 

[BazBall21]

LATD. I would rate 76 higher.

Miandad's match saving ton in an epic game v probably the best bowler to ever exist is a bit special. His away record overall is iffy for someone who got the luck of the draw at home and is generally regarded as an ATG but I'm a big fan of that knock.

 

[Johan]

FTR Gavaskar is in my top 15 while Miandad my top 30

 

[BazBall21]

These rankings are tough. The game has changed a lot over the years, players get vastly different circumstances to others, eye test is only available in sparse amounts for so many etc.

 

[BazBall21]

I already acknowledged Miandad’s record in NZ. But you have to look at the overall picture and can’t say that because of one good series in WI, Miandad is even comparable to Sunny therez Sunny’s series in 71 and 76(because he was facing Roberts and Holding who despite being raw bowled brilliantly) were great. Miandad only has one comparable(and Marshall didn’t even blow in the match when Miandad scored a ton, so maybe 1987/88 for Javed is overrated). Because of one ton vs Lillee he is not better in Aus(you are wrong about Thommo being weak in that series).

The hundred v Lillee was on a proper road too. His tons in England were on roads too. I think Trinidad 1988 and Christchurch 1979 were Miandad's best knocks abroad.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Miandad's match saving ton in an epic game v probably the best bowler to ever exist is a bit special. His away record overall is iffy for someone who got the luck of the draw at home and is generally regarded as an ATG but I'm a big fan of that knock.

Yeah that knock on itself was better than any Gavaskar knock in 76. But Gavaskar scored in 3 of the 4 matches.