Jack Hobbs vs Sachin Tendulkar

[capt_Luffy]

Any evidence that Thommo was the same pace threat as before since it's pretty common knowledge he had an injury the year prior that reduced his pace. Anyways, I don't think you will argue Miandad faced better attacks generally his time in Australia.


Look at the level of excuses you are pulling out. If you want to discount early career tours, then Miandad did the same in 78 and failed. Remove that, and Miandad averages far higher than Gavaskar. Was the weaker bowling only apply to Miandad when Gavaskar faced that in his last tour?


How can you just glibly skip over this fact? He owned Hadlee in his own conditions. Don't get why Gavaskar gets credit for doing well against Imran in Pak but Miandad not for this.


No way in heck is 71 a better series.

Peak Marshall, Ambrose and Walsh is objectively a better attack than what Gavaskar faced, and Miandad produced a match winning knock and a match saving knock back to back.

If you want to argue Ambrose was too raw at that stage, same applies to Holding.


Because Miandad only played two series in WI, one early stage career and the other in the middle which is more relevant, that's why I didn't break it down.

I would had responded to every one of your points, but right now I am busy so will just call you dumb and move on for now.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

I like how the weak attack argument only applies to Miandad in England and not Gavaskar in Australia. Thommo was already injured and down in pace when Gavaskar faced him. Miandad faced quality attacks every tour there.

Bottomline, Gavaskar in England failed in four out of five series in England. It makes the ATG series seem far less important frankly.

No, you are underrating Miandad against Hadlee. He has three tons in NZ including a double ton and a match winning one against him. Gavaskar never even faced him there in Hadlees prime.

Miandad in WI in 87/88 still better than any series of Gavaskar in WI. We are talking a 4th innings match saving ton against peak Marshall.

Unfortunately it's clear that Gavaskars record away from home is massively padded and inflated.

I already acknowledged Miandad’s record in NZ. But you have to look at the overall picture and can’t say that because of one good series in WI, Miandad is even comparable to Sunny therez Sunny’s series in 71 and 76(because he was facing Roberts and Holding who despite being raw bowled brilliantly) were great. Miandad only has one comparable(and Marshall didn’t even blow in the match when Miandad scored a ton, so maybe 1987/88 for Javed is overrated). Because of one ton vs Lillee he is not better in Aus(you are wrong about Thommo being weak in that series).

 

[kyear2]

I would had responded to every one of your points, but right now I am busy so will just call you dumb and move on for now.

Being awful spicy, and not in any way trying to defend Subz, but nothing there is that objectionable.

And in no way is he suggesting that Miandad was as good as Sunny, at least I don't think so.

 

[kyear2]

I already acknowledged Miandad’s record in NZ. But you have to look at the overall picture and can’t say that because of one good series in WI, Miandad is even comparable to Sunny therez Sunny’s series is 71 and 76(because he was facing Roberts and Holding who despite being raw bowled brilliantly). or because of one ton vs Lillee he is better in Aus(you are wrong about Thommo being weak in that series).

Why wasn't Thompson involved in WSC?

 

[subshakerz]

This one though, handicapped?

Even though @Slifer keeps pointing out that his and Tendy's record against SA aren't that different?

I think when you look at the record you notice that Lara once he developed his eye problem in 94 was never the same against higher pace.

 

[subshakerz]

Being awful spicy, and not in any way trying to defend Subz, but nothing there is that objectionable.

And in no way is he suggesting that Miandad was as good as Sunny, at least I don't think so.

Yeah in fact I explicitly said Miandad is a league behind Sunny.

I am just suggesting that Gavaskar doesn't really have a superior away record.

 

[kyear2]

I think when you look at the record you notice that Lara once he developed his eye problem in 94 was never the same against higher pace.

Big leap between never the same and handicapped.

 

[subshakerz]

Big leap between never the same and handicapped.

I mean, it was a minor physical handicap of sorts. At first I thought it was a technique issue, but I suspect it has to do more with his eye problem.

 

[Johan]

...literally two months after the India series, Holding had THAT England series and THAT London test and had already played a 5 match series in international cricket, Ambrose on the other hand was an actual debutant who did horribly all around, I agree with @capt_Luffy on 76 Gavaskar matching Miandad

 

[capt_Luffy]

Why wasn't Thompson involved in WSC?

Had commitments with a radio station, that forced him (alongside Kallicharran) to play FC and hence not Test.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Why wasn't Thompson involved in WSC?

I don’t know but it is widely acknowledged post 77, Thomson remained very quick and he only really declined as a bowler after 79. Plus even Wayne Clark bowled well in that series(a guy literally known for chucking it)

 

[capt_Luffy]

Being awful spicy, and not in any way trying to defend Subz, but nothing there is that objectionable.

And in no way is he suggesting that Miandad was as good as Sunny, at least I don't think so.

I Legitimately didn't read it. But saying Miandad had a comparable away record is laughably poor.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

...literally two months after the India series, Holding had THAT England series and THAT London test and had already played a 5 match series in international cricket, Ambrose on the other hand was an actual debutant who did horribly all around, I agree with @capt_Luffy on 76 Gavaskar matching Miandad

And during the match with Miandad’s ton, Marshall didn’t even bowl. So he wasn’t even facing that lethal an attack. Plus you can’t equate Holding in the 76 series(he bowled very well) and Ambrose in 88

 

[subshakerz]

I already acknowledged Miandad’s record in NZ.

You called it overrated. I assume you checked back and found that it was not. At.least Luffy calls it ATG.

But you have to look at the overall picture and can’t say that because of one good series in WI, Miandad is even comparable to Sunny therez Sunny’s series in 71 and 76(because he was facing Roberts and Holding who despite being raw bowled brilliantly) were great. Miandad only has one comparable(and Marshall didn’t even blow in the match when Miandad scored a ton, so maybe 1987/88 for Javed is overrated).

You realise that Roberts also wasn't in one game when Gavaskar scored a ton in 76?

I am just saying that Miandad had two series, early career in which he struggled and 88 in which he did better than Gavaskar ever did.

It's fine if you want to give Gavaskar more points for WI, but admit it's because of his runs against mid attacks.

Because of one ton vs Lillee he is not better in Aus(you are wrong about Thommo being weak in that series).

Thommo wasnt the Thommo that we know.

I just showed Miandad did better relatively against Lillee and played better attacks in Aus.

Again, you can argue Sunny was better overall in Australia given the run difference, but acknowledge it's because of runs against lesser attacks.

 

[subshakerz]

And during the match with Miandad’s ton, Marshall didn’t even bowl. So he wasn’t even facing that lethal an attack. Plus you can’t equate Holding in the 76 series(he bowled very well) and Ambrose in 88

Miandad scored a vital ton in the second game with Marshall.

 

[capt_Luffy]

You called it overrated. I assume you checked back and found that it was not. At.least Luffy calls it ATG.


You realise that Roberts also wasn't in one game when Gavaskar scored a ton in 76?

I am just saying that Miandad had two series, early career in which he struggled and 88 in which he did better than Gavaskar ever did.

It's fine if you want to give Gavaskar more points for WI, but admit it's because of his runs against mid attacks.


Thommo wasnt the Thommo that we know.

I just showed Miandad did better relatively against Lillee and played better attacks in Aus.

Again, you can argue Sunny was better overall in Australia given the run difference, but acknowledge it's because of runs against lesser attacks.

And I am saying that **** never happened.
Roberts also was in one game he scored a ton.
Thommo was Thommo well until 79. That was clearly one of his better series. And Miandad scored a ton vs Lillee, but Gavaskar's 70 was more valuable. And given it was a literal 3 match series, I will not hold it against him.

To sum it up, Gavaskar averages twice as Miandad in WI and 11 runs higher in Australia. It is by no means even close. Miandad also never scored a century in India, while Gavaskar is easily the Best ever in Pakistan.

 

[subshakerz]

...literally two months after the India series, Holding had THAT England series and THAT London test and had already played a 5 match series in international cricket, Ambrose on the other hand was an actual debutant who did horribly all around, I agree with @capt_Luffy on 76 Gavaskar matching Miandad

Do you see Roberts as matching peak Marshall?

By the way, it wasn't just Ambrose, it was Walsh and Patterson as well in the 1st test in 88. Meanwhile, Holding in the 3rd test in 76 didn't have a test standard bowler bowling with him.

The second test in 88 with Marshall back, Pakistan were chasing a high score and actually gave a decent chase, without Miandad no way they save that test.

 

[subshakerz]

And I am saying that **** never happened.
Roberts also was in one game he scored a ton.

There is no way the attacks for the two tons of Gavaskar in 76 match up to those of Miandad in 88.

And Miandad scored a ton vs Lillee, but Gavaskar's 70 was more valuable. And given it was a literal 3 match series, I will not hold it against him.

You can give credit to a 50 but not Miandad in 81?

To sum it up, Gavaskar averages twice as Miandad in WI and 11 runs higher in Australia. It is by no means even close. Miandad also never scored a century in India, while Gavaskar is easily the Best ever in Pakistan.

Miandad is easily the best against Hadlee in NZ which is more impressive given the wickets there. His record in India is good enough to not be used against him.

The reason it isn't close in the other countries is Gavaskar lining his pockets against lesser attacks. He faced the peak WI attack, Lillee and prime Hadlee in single series each of which he didn't score. So if we put Gavaskar ahead, it's because he got lucky enough to score when it was easier, which is fine.

 

[subshakerz]

...literally two months after the India series, Holding had THAT England series and THAT London test and had already played a 5 match series in international cricket@capt_Luffy on 76 Gavaskar matching Miandad

Yes I believe that is called a breakthrough series. It doesn't mean Holding was a worldclass bowler at that point in 76.

 

[capt_Luffy]

There is no way the attacks for the two tons of Gavaskar in 76 match up to those of Miandad in 88.


You can give credit to a 50 but not Miandad in 81?


Miandad is easily the best against Hadlee in NZ which is more impressive given the wickets there. His record in India is good enough to not be used against him.

The reason it isn't close in the other countries is Gavaskar lining his pockets against lesser attacks. He faced the peak WI attack, Lillee and prime Hadlee in single series each of which he didn't score. So if we put Gavaskar ahead, it's because he got lucky enough to score when it was easier, which is fine.

Marshall was just back from injury, Ambrose was a debutant and frankly quite bad and Walsh was pretty much an enforcer back then, doing heavy lifting. Gavaskar scoring in 3 of 4 matches and forcing WI to implement their 4 pacers tactics is ahead for me.
You mean the match in which Pakistan scored 624?? I give Miandad credit for that ton (which he scored one in the 11 matches he played vs Lillee), but you are watching cricket with you bum if you think Gavaskar's 70 in a 4th innings successful chase isn't better.