Jack Hobbs vs Sachin Tendulkar

[Coronis]

Have you ever looked into the win rates of the era and see why there were so many draws?
Especially in the WI?

It would be instructive for you to take a look.

Its because the team bowled in a way not conducive to wins.

 

[kyear2]

That means you will have the likes of Barrington and Kallis quite low in your all time list.

Boycott, Barrington etc etc.

That's what pushes Hutton to the bottom of my top 8.

It's undoubtedly harder to consistently score at a faster rate, and there's way too many advantages to those batsmen to not have them over the ones who couldn't.

 

[h_hurricane]

Have you ever looked into the win rates of the era and see why there were so many draws?
Especially in the WI?

It would be instructive for you to take a look.

Poor over rate says hi. Jadeja probably takes wickets abroad in a faster time than Garner/ Holding etc. did. May be even faster than Marshall.

 

[Coronis]

Poor over rate says hi. Jadeja probably takes wickets abroad in a faster time than Garner/ Holding etc. did. May be even faster than Marshall.

Exactly. All the bowlers fault. Too much wasted time.

 

[subshakerz]

Miandad’s away record outside Hadlee is overrated. In Eng Gavaskar has an ATG series, Miandad plundered weak attacks there. Overall in WI, Gavaskar is way better any way you put it. And in Aus, Miandad has one ton but has a far worse record cmon. Gavaskar faced a very threatening Thommo and Wayne Clarke there

I like how the weak attack argument only applies to Miandad in England and not Gavaskar in Australia. Thommo was already injured and down in pace when Gavaskar faced him. Miandad faced quality attacks every tour there.

Bottomline, Gavaskar in England failed in four out of five series in England. It makes the ATG series seem far less important frankly.

No, you are underrating Miandad against Hadlee. He has three tons in NZ including a double ton and a match winning one against him. Gavaskar never even faced him there in Hadlees prime.

Miandad in WI in 87/88 still better than any series of Gavaskar in WI. We are talking a 4th innings match saving ton against peak Marshall.

Unfortunately it's clear that Gavaskars record away from home is massively padded and inflated.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I like how the weak attack argument only applies to Miandad in England and not Gavaskar in Australia. Thommo was already injured and down in pace when Gavaskar faced him. Miandad faced quality attacks every tour there.

Bottomline, Gavaskar in England failed in four out of five series in England. It makes the ATG series seem far less important frankly.

No, you are underrating Miandad against Hadlee. He has three tons in NZ including a double ton and a match winning one against him. Gavaskar never even faced him there in Hadlees prime.

Miandad in WI in 87/88 still better than any series of Gavaskar in WI. We are talking a 4th innings match saving ton against peak Marshall.

Unfortunately it's clear that Gavaskars record away from home is massively padded and inflated.

No he wasn't!! Thommo bowled peak that series and averaged low 20s. Wayne Clarke partnered him perfectly with blatant chucking. It was Legitimately lower scoring than the 81 tour with Lillee.
Except that ATG series, Gavaskar's last tour of England was pretty good and his second series there had plenty silver linings. He failed in the other two, but one was when he was very young. Miandad played much weaker bowling in general there to average 6 runs more.
Miandad is ATG in NZ, but that's about it.
Gavaskar in 76 and 71 both better than Miandad in 87. One has 3 great innings in 4 matches against Holding and Roberts, pushing them ultimately over the edge to implement the 4 pacers attack and the other series saw him score the 3rd most runs in a series. You just want to see what you want to see here. Especially love how for England it's overall spread of runs across series but for WI, it turns to the better series (which Miandad even doesn't gets).

 

[kyear2]

Its because the team bowled in a way not conducive to wins.

As I said, it would be instructive.

Rain, and admittedly not the greatest of drainage systems (remember the era) often played a significant role in some of those draws. @SillyCowCorner1 would attest that Bourda was always good for a missed day or two, in Barbados the running joke was that the best way to assure rain was to schedule a test match.

Not an excuse, obviously only impacted home games and doesn't cover what ever else ailed the team, but was a factor. Also for some reason, and contrary to popular belief, most of the WI pitches were not conducive to pace bowling. I'm also not saying it wasn't sporting or a bad thing for the record.

And again, not making excuses, but it contributed...

 

[kyear2]

Poor over rate says hi. Jadeja probably takes wickets abroad in a faster time than Garner/ Holding etc. did. May be even faster than Marshall.

Over rates did play a role. It was seen as an acceptable down side of rolling out 4 pacers with those lengths of run ups. Would be interesting to see if the win rates was higher with Harper.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Over rates did play a role. It was seen as an acceptable down side of rolling out 4 pacers with those lengths of run ups. Would be interesting to see if the win rates was higher with Harper.

It actually was IIRC

 

[Coronis]

As I said, it would be instructive.

Rain, and admittedly not the greatest of drainage systems (remember the era) often played a significant role in some of those draws. @SillyCowCorner1 would attest that Bourda was always good for a missed day or two, in Barbados the running joke was that the best way to assure rain was to schedule a test match.

Not an excuse, obviously only impacted home games and doesn't cover what ever else ailed the team, but was a factor. Also for some reason, and contrary to popular belief, most of the WI pitches were not conducive to pace bowling. I'm also not saying it wasn't sporting or a bad thing for the record.

And again, not making excuses, but it contributed...

Post entirely about excuse.

 

[Coronis]

Over rates did play a role. It was seen as an acceptable down side of rolling out 4 pacers with those lengths of run ups. Would be interesting to see if the win rates was higher with Harper.

In Harper’s career span

With Harper: 17 wins 2 losses 6 draws 68% win
Without Harper: 28 wins 10 losses 17 draws 51% win (roughly similar to the entire 80’s decade win rate)

 

[kyear2]

I like how the weak attack argument only applies to Miandad in England and not Gavaskar in Australia. Thommo was already injured and down in pace when Gavaskar faced him. Miandad faced quality attacks every tour there.

Bottomline, Gavaskar in England failed in four out of five series in England. It makes the ATG series seem far less important frankly.

No, you are underrating Miandad against Hadlee. He has three tons in NZ including a double ton and a match winning one against him. Gavaskar never even faced him there in Hadlees prime.

Miandad in WI in 87/88 still better than any series of Gavaskar in WI. We are talking a 4th innings match saving ton against peak Marshall.

Unfortunately it's clear that Gavaskars record away from home is massively padded and inflated.

None of this is new.

This will get some blowback, but I've said for years that there were two spots for my all time team I was previously not happy with. The second opener being the one main and I went through multiple options (which were and are mocked), even referencing Jaiswal and hoping he solidifies his legacy at soonest.

But Sunny, as great as he was, his legacy was built on a record that was misleading and like Hammond (and too a lesser extent Lara) I'm not convinced with how comfortable to high end pace. Don't get me wrong, ATGs and all 2nd team guys (Hammond solidifies with his catching), but just not the bullet proof skill set that one expects.

Doesn't mean he's also not a top 10 bat, and someone I have very close to Chappell, Hammond, Border, Ponting and Kallis.

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

As I said, it would be instructive.

Rain, and admittedly not the greatest of drainage systems (remember the era) often played a significant role in some of those draws. @SillyCowCorner1 would attest that Bourda was always good for a missed day or two, in Barbados the running joke was that the best way to assure rain was to schedule a test match.

Bourda was a fine cricket ground. It's just that they had to schedule tests during a rainy season. In Guyana, we have two wet and two dry seasons.

There is a wet season that goes from November all the way to February...and another one in May-June...the rest of the months are dry

 

[kyear2]

Post entirely about excuse.

Only to one like you.

 

[kyear2]

In Harper’s career span

With Harper: 17 wins 2 losses 6 draws 68% win
Without Harper: 28 wins 10 losses 17 draws 51% win (roughly similar to the entire 80’s decade win rate)

That is instructive and a little counter initiative.

It also lends pause to one of my long held beliefs.

So genuine question to you.

If you're a middle order batsman and have seen off Marshall, Ambrose and Garner, who would you prefer to see next, Whispering Death or Lance Gibbs?

 

[Arachnodouche]

Virat’s failures have made me respect Sachin even more. It shows how tough it is to be at the highest level for a very long time in test cricket.

Yep. He could've bowed out in 2011 still having had played more Tests than anyone in history with an average rivaling if not bettering that hack Sangakkara. Complete disregard for fans' bragging rights to have continued for those final 25 Tests.

 

[DrWolverine]

If you're a middle order batsman and have seen off Marshall, Ambrose and Garner, who would you prefer to see next, Whispering Death or Lance Gibbs?

Is this even a question?

I would rather face Shane Warne than Shaun Tait

 

[kyear2]

Is this even a question?

I would rather face Shane Warne than Shaun Tait

Warne is more likely to got you out though, and remember you're a test batsman.

 

[DrWolverine]

Warne is more likely to got you out though, and remember you're a test batsman.

I forgot that I am a test batsman

 

[subshakerz]

No he wasn't!! Thommo bowled peak that series and averaged low 20s. Wayne Clarke partnered him perfectly with blatant chucking. It was Legitimately lower scoring than the 81 tour with Lillee.

Any evidence that Thommo was the same pace threat as before since it's pretty common knowledge he had an injury the year prior that reduced his pace. Anyways, I don't think you will argue Miandad faced better attacks generally his time in Australia.

Except that ATG series, Gavaskar's last tour of England was pretty good and his second series there had plenty silver linings. He failed in the other two, but one was when he was very young. Miandad played much weaker bowling in general there to average 6 runs more.

Look at the level of excuses you are pulling out. If you want to discount early career tours, then Miandad did the same in 78 and failed. Remove that, and Miandad averages far higher than Gavaskar. Was the weaker bowling only apply to Miandad when Gavaskar faced that in his last tour?

Miandad is ATG in NZ, but that's about it.

How can you just glibly skip over this fact? He owned Hadlee in his own conditions. Don't get why Gavaskar gets credit for doing well against Imran in Pak but Miandad not for this.

Gavaskar in 76 and 71 both better than Miandad in 87. One has 3 great innings in 4 matches against Holding and Roberts, pushing them ultimately over the edge to implement the 4 pacers attack and the other series saw him score the 3rd most runs in a series.

No way in heck is 71 a better series.

Peak Marshall, Ambrose and Walsh is objectively a better attack than what Gavaskar faced, and Miandad produced a match winning knock and a match saving knock back to back.

If you want to argue Ambrose was too raw at that stage, same applies to Holding.

You just want to see what you want to see here. Especially love how for England it's overall spread of runs across series but for WI, it turns to the better series (which Miandad even doesn't gets).

Because Miandad only played two series in WI, one early stage career and the other in the middle which is more relevant, that's why I didn't break it down.