Garry Sobers vs Imran Khan

[Slifer]

There's no doubt, I very much lived through that era.

But some want to say that it is fabricated and whining. They were not going to allow the domination to continue and took drastic moves to ensure it didn't.

I lived through it as well. I remember the back handed commentary from Greig and Benaud. I remember stories of how Lindwall and Miller used to bounce Weekes etc mercilessly. That's one of the reasons why for example in the 3rd test of the 1980 series, WI had had the game well in hand but they wanted to rub Australia's noses in it. Most definitely the establishment was against the tactics of the likes of Marshall etc. Which ironically, they learned from the likes of Lillee.

 

[kyear2]

I lived through it as well. I remember the back handed commentary from Greig and Benaud. I remember stories of how Lindwall and Miller used to bounce Weekes etc mercilessly. That's one of the reasons why for example in the 3rd test of the 1980 series, WI had had the game well in hand but they wanted to rub Australia's noses in it. Most definitely the establishment was against the tactics of the likes of Marshall etc. Which ironically, they learned from the likes of Lillee.

The hypocrisy is what was the worst tbh.

They literally got it from Lillee and Thompson.

 

[subshakerz]

We can simply agree to disagree.

Lara was every bit the global superstar that Tendulkar was, so was Warne and Richards before them.

Moat of what you mentioned above for Tendulkar you said should be disregarded for Warne and led to him being over rated.

But we can agree to disagree and end this discussion here.

Warne is overrated because flaws in his record are overlooked. Not so with Tendulkar.

Yes let's disengage but I hope you appreciate the difference between better and greater.

 

[subshakerz]

There's no doubt, I very much lived through that era.

But some want to say that it is fabricated and whining. They were not going to allow the domination to continue and took drastic moves to ensure it didn't.

Nah I think it might be true for Benaud who was quite biased not even shortlisting one WI for his pacers for his ATG XI, but I don't think that accounts for the entire English press and global South cricketers and his own teammates not rating Marshall as high as a cricketer.

Btw Benaud despite his biases for Warne and Lillee considers Tendulkar the greatest cricketer he has ever seen.

 

[kyear2]

Warne is overrated because flaws in his record are overlooked. Not so with Tendulkar.

Yes let's disengage but I hope you appreciate the difference between better and greater.

I think it's you that don't understand the difference, think I made it quite clear in the other thread.

 

[subshakerz]

I think it's you that don't understand the difference, think I made it quite clear in the other thread.

Nah you confused it further.

 

[kyear2]

Nah I think it might be true for Benaud who was quite biased not even shortlisting one WI for his pacers for his ATG XI, but I don't think that accounts for the entire English press and global South cricketers and his own teammates not rating Marshall as high as a cricketer.

Btw Benaud despite his biases for Warne and Lillee considers Tendulkar the greatest cricketer he has ever seen.

Again you presume to tell us what was circulating about our team.

The multiple rule changes, the changes with regards to county contracts. It was England that bore most of the brunt of what was being dished out.
They did unfortunately hit a couple English batters.

 

[kyear2]

Nah I think it might be true for Benaud who was quite biased not even shortlisting one WI for his pacers for his ATG XI, but I don't think that accounts for the entire English press and global South cricketers and his own teammates not rating Marshall as high as a cricketer.

Btw Benaud despite his biases for Warne and Lillee considers Tendulkar the greatest cricketer he has ever seen.

Just hair above Lara, so Lara is 4th?

 

[subshakerz]

Again you presume to tell us what was circulating about our team.

The multiple rule changes, the changes with regards to county contracts. It was England that bore most of the brunt of what was being dished out.
They did unfortunately hit a couple English batters.

Yet they gave Ambrose a knighthood lol.

And like I said, if you take a poll of WI cricketers, you would likely see Lara and Viv rated ahead of Marshall.

 

[peterhrt]

Imran was educated at Oxford and is currently bidding to become chancellor of the University. He played most of his cricket in England, married a British billionaire's daughter, and wrote for The Times where he once produced a scathing review of Botham's autobiography.

He also cultivated relationships with members of the MCC hierarchy, which paid dividends when some of them backed his call for neutral umpires. Imran was a fully signed-up member of the English establishment, and any media bias regarding his cricketing abilities would have been in his favour. Even so, no English journalist would claim he was close to Sobers as an all-round cricketer, especially those who saw Sobers play.

 

[subshakerz]

Just hair above Lara, so Lara is 4th?

No Lara like Warne has flaws in his record that the pundits overlook too so gets downgraded.

 

[subshakerz]

Imran was educated at Oxford and is currently bidding to become chancellor of the University. He played most of his cricket in England, married a British billionaire's daughter, and wrote for The Times where he once produced a scathing review of Botham's autobiography.

He also cultivated relationships with members of the MCC hierarchy, which paid dividends when some of them backed his call for neutral umpires. Imran was a fully signed-up member of the English establishment, and any media bias regarding his cricketing abilities would have been in his favour. Even so, no English journalist would claim he was close to Sobers as an all-round cricketer, especially those who saw Sobers play.

I think it's fair to say that Imran might be closer to Sobers than these pundits think. I don't think there should be a debate that Imran is behind Sobers though.

 

[Slifer]

Yet they gave Ambrose a knighthood lol.

And like I said, if you take a poll of WI cricketers, you would likely see Lara and Viv rated ahead of Marshall.

The Governor General of Antigua knighted Ambrose not the queen (or king) of England.

 

[Johan]

No Lara like Warne has flaws in his record that the pundits overlook too so gets downgraded.

what holes?

 

[kyear2]

Yet they gave Ambrose a knighthood lol.

And like I said, if you take a poll of WI cricketers, you would likely see Lara and Viv rated ahead of Marshall.

Oh my God, are you serious?

This is why you shouldn't talk about things you don't understand.

He was knighted by the government of Antigua.

 

[kyear2]

No Lara like Warne has flaws in his record that the pundits overlook too so gets downgraded.

You are hilarious.

 

[kyear2]

I think it's fair to say that Imran might be closer to Sobers than these pundits think. I don't think there should be a debate that Imran is behind Sobers though.

That the thing with you, you just said that Tendulkar and Warne are not close, when Warne was a Wisden cricketer of the century and had all the qualities you spoke of earlier.

But you explained that you have Sachin 3rd and Warne barely top 10.

Well I have Sobers 2nd and Imran 9th or 10th, but you would still want to argue that it's close.

Everyone has different perspectives. Not to mention earlier you were saying the pundits are mostly right (except for Lillee and Warne of course), but now there's reason to believe they are wrong.

 

[kyear2]

what holes?

Just look for any every other post from the past month, you'll see him talking about them.

 

[subshakerz]

what holes?

A relatively underwhelming away record compared to the other top tiers.

Averages less than 50 overall away. Fewer good/great series in most countries than other top tier bats. Generally poor returns against the top class pacers (Donald, Wasim/Waqar, McGrath, Bond, Eng Ashes quartet) in the series faced in their own countries. Mostly lined his pockets against diminished attacks of most countries. Unproven in India.

 

[subshakerz]

That the thing with you, you just said that Tendulkar and Warne are not close, when Warne was a Wisden cricketer of the century and had all the qualities you spoke of earlier.

But you explained that you have Sachin 3rd and Warne barely top 10.

Well I have Sobers 2nd and Imran 9th or 10th, but you would still want to argue that it's close.

Everyone has different perspectives. Not to mention earlier you were saying the pundits are mostly right (except for Lillee and Warne of course), but now there's reason to believe they are wrong.

I think you might have a comprehension issue.

I never said I am wedded to the exact pundit rankings. I think when it comes to measuring greatness, they give credit to what these cricketers have contributed to the game, which is a good thing to include, but often overlook career record flaws or notably better records, which we can adjust for by dropping or upgrading a few places.

I just said I am leery of just departing too far from their consensus and coming up with my own spin, like you do when you take Marshall from 15 to 20 in their estimate to no.3 of all-time.