Garry Sobers vs Imran Khan

[Migara]

Can someone take a look at his record and tell me why his bowling is rated so highly? For some reason I used to think he has more 5fers, but he has 6 of them in 93 matches. Ok, maybe he played in an era of high SR for bowlers but all the main bowlers in that era seem to have significantly better SRs than him. So he was just a bowler good enough to hold an end economically and take the occasional wickets?

So you are regerring to a super version of Carl Hooper?

 

[smash84]

Sobers played 33 matches from 1961 to 1968; taking 125 wickets @27.93. played 8 tests against India in this period, taking 37 wickets @22.24.
So excluding India, he played 25 tests in that span, taking 88 wickets @30.33.
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I thought so, except bashing India, his record really isn't that great.

 

[Migara]

Kapil played a lot more tests for his runs.

Botham started and played his entire career in the top six, but then he was just a better bat.

The clincher for me is that in his prime Imran had multiple quality returns in series in Eng, Aus, Ind and NZ. He was better away from home than at home.

However, the workhorse argument is fine for Sobers though he wasn't that penetrative against top sides.

Xould say Imran was a workhorse batsman.

 

[smash84]

So you are regerring to a super version of Carl Hooper?

I feel like when we scrutinize Sobers record as we do of other players, he doesn't come across as impressive.

An upgrade on Carl Hooper sounds a bit low.

 

[Migara]

I feel like when we scrutinize Sobers record as we do of other players, he doesn't come across as impressive.

An upgrade on Carl Hooper sounds a bit low.

The great WI side house batsmen like Hooper and Logie. Even the minnow side of SL had three or four batsmen better than those two. Comparing Imran's batting to Logie is outragous. Imran with the bat was very versatile like Sobers with the ball. He could stone wall, play strokes like a top order bator could use a long handle as a lower order bat. It is ridiculous no one looks at Imran's versatility with the bat.

 

[subshakerz]

The great WI side house batsmen like Hooper and Logie. Even the minnow side of SL had three or four batsmen better than those two. Comparing Imran's batting to Logie is outragous. Imran with the bat was very versatile like Sobers with the ball. He could stone wall, play strokes like a top order bator could use a long handle as a lower order bat. It is ridiculous no one looks at Imran's versatility with the bat.

Imran especially in ODIs did the smash and the steady build role very well.

But yeah, the problem here is that folks like @kyear2 want to pretend the 80s were like the 2000s when everyone and their uncle was averaging 40 as a baseline.

No, in the 80s virtually every side had a low to mid 30s lower order bat. Imran fits comfortably as a specialist bat respective to the era.

Kyear needs to dishonestly pretend Logie with two tons in 50 games was a better bat than Imran though is a real low.

 

[Coronis]

Imran SR of 48. That’s barely above Kallis. Complete hack. Costing his team wins.

 

[subshakerz]

Imran SR of 48. That’s barely above Kallis. Complete hack. Costing his team wins.

I agree Viv is better.

 

[ankitj]

Sobers played 33 matches from 1961 to 1968; taking 125 wickets @27.93. played 8 tests against India in this period, taking 37 wickets @22.24.
So excluding India, he played 25 tests in that span, taking 88 wickets @30.33.
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Now do Imran's best 8 years with his secondary skill.

 

[ankitj]

Now do Imran's best 8 years with his secondary skill.

I did 10 years (because it suits me)

 

[ankitj]

Bowling in the same period:



How can anyone say Imran is not close to Sobers? SMH.

 

[subshakerz]

I did 10 years (because it suits me)

View attachment 42369

Again, most impressive in this is that IK twice toured Australia and England in this period and scored well, and then scored well in series in India (MOS) and NZ with Hadlee.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Sobers played 33 matches from 1961 to 1968; taking 125 wickets @27.93. played 8 tests against India in this period, taking 37 wickets @22.24.
So excluding India, he played 25 tests in that span, taking 88 wickets @30.33.
View attachment 42363
View attachment 42364

This period has two excellent series in England where he picked up 20 wickets and a series in Australia where he averaged 24, so it wasn't just India bashing like people are saying. Sobers' bowling peak had him putting up similar numbers to a good frontline pacer (in terms of actual number of wickets because he was around 4 wickets per match). Imran in his batting peak had great batting averages but only around 40 runs per game (because he had lots of not ours etc).

Definitely find Sobers' bowling peak more impressive than Imran's batting tbh. He combined good average + actual workload and wickets production more than Imran did.

 

[Migara]

Imran SR of 48. That’s barely above Kallis. Complete hack. Costing his team wins.

Who said Imran was like Sehwag? He could stonewall.

 

[subshakerz]

This period has two excellent series in England where he picked up 20 wickets and a series in Australia where he averaged 24, so it wasn't just India bashing like people are saying. Sobers' bowling peak had him putting up similar numbers to a good frontline pacer (in terms of actual number of wickets because he was around 4 wickets per match). Imran in his batting peak had great batting averages but only around 40 runs per game (because he had lots of not ours etc).

Definitely find Sobers' bowling peak more impressive than Imran's batting tbh. He combined good average + actual workload and wickets production more than Imran did.

Even if we agree, it was a much shorter peak than Imran, only 1/3rd of his career whereas Imran it's 2/3rds.

 

[Migara]

If you want to match a 50+ batsmam, then ypu need sub 25 bowling.

 

[Thala_0710]

If you want to match a 50+ batsmam, then ypu need sub 25 bowling.

Probably even a lower one:
Did rough math on this. In the last 100 years of test cricket, there are 325 players to have scored more than 2000 runs in test cricket. Now since on avg about 1.5 times (6 vs 4) batters to bowlers play on avg in any test, the equivalent number for bowlers is 325/1.5=217 which I checked, gives 87 test wkts.
Now in the same period, 34 Batsman avg over 50 with min 2000 test runs, for bowlers with 87 test wkts the corresponding avg is 23 for 34/1.5=23 bowlers (both 23 represent separate stuff).
The number 23 also makes more sense to me intuitively than 25 which I feel is a bit on the higher side compared to a 50+ avg bat

 

[OverratedSanity]

Even if we agree, it was a much shorter peak than Imran, only 1/3rd of his career whereas Imran it's 2/3rds.

It's approximately 2/3rds for imran too. He averaged less than 30 for around 60 tests , then in his final 25-30 he became a 50+ average bat.

Saying he averaged close to 50 in the final decade of his career is technically true but slightly misleading because it's very skewed towards the back half of the decade. He averaged ~60 from 1987 onwards when his bowling declined. And even in this period even though he was an excellent batsman, he only had 50 or so runs per game which is much lower production than a proper 50 avg batsman. Sobers put together his batting and bowling peak simultaneously in a marginally more impressive way imo with comparable average + WPM of a frontline bowler.

 

[Coronis]

iirc he was a **** bowler for like 20+ tests at the start of his career too. And then what, nothing really for his last 15 or so tests? At least when he was **** at the start he was still taking decent hauls.

 

[ankitj]

This period has two excellent series in England where he picked up 20 wickets and a series in Australia where he averaged 24, so it wasn't just India bashing like people are saying. Sobers' bowling peak had him putting up similar numbers to a good frontline pacer (in terms of actual number of wickets because he was around 4 wickets per match). Imran in his batting peak had great batting averages but only around 40 runs per game (because he had lots of not ours etc).

Definitely find Sobers' bowling peak more impressive than Imran's batting tbh. He combined good average + actual workload and wickets production more than Imran did.

Fair point. Sobers had more specialist equivalent workload than Imran in their respective secondary discipline. But Imran had a superior average (not outs don't increase your average). I can call it dead heat in their secondary disciplines during their peaks but over entire careers I think Imran wins out marginally.

It's in their primary disciplines where Sobers had a clear edge so in sum I rate Sobers marginally higher. Things like slip catching gets at least evenly matched by Imran's captaincy and legacy he left behind.