Andy Flower vs Alan Knott

[capt_Luffy]

That makes no sense, but carry on.

Some maths here:

A drop catch on average costs 25 runs. On average if a keeper gets 5 catches per match, that means for 100 catches it will take them 20 matches. 10 additional drops means 250 runs. Now on these 20 matches, they will bat an average of 35 innings. 10 extra runs each innings means 350 runs.

Is it too over simplification? Very much is. Many things here are dependent on match situations, some catches can cost 200 runs, sometime the better batsman can score a 150. But mathematical, it was hardly wrong.


(Yes, I posted this very obnoxiously)

 

[Coronis]

Some maths here:

A drop catch on average costs 25 runs. On average if a keeper gets 5 catches per match, that means for 100 catches it will take them 20 matches. 10 additional drops means 250 runs. Now on these 20 matches, they will bat an average of 35 innings. 10 extra runs each innings means 350 runs.

Is it too over simplification? Very much is. Many things here are dependent on match situations, some catches can cost 200 runs, sometime the better batsman can score a 150. But mathematical, it was hardly wrong.


(Yes, I posted this very obnoxiously)

Not since the 1900’s.

And yeah the whole assuming 10 extra chances thing is a bit eh in my book. Plus I feel nobody has mentioned stumpings.. which I would say require more skill.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Not since the 1900’s.

And yeah the whole assuming 10 extra chances thing is a bit eh in my book. Plus I feel nobody has mentioned stumpings.. which I would say require more skill.

Stumping in general is pretty tame nowadays even in SC, since batsmen don't really need to often step out for hitting a six. But yeah, I found both of this arguments a bit eh. I never said Knott is unviable. And in terms of judging cricketers in their respective eras (the way it should be, not ATG teams), Knott is definitely an ATG, probably greater than Flower. But I just feel in a practical scenario, Flower keeping will do more good than harm; or that in practicality, there isn't a lot separating Knott from say Jayawardene or Saha.

 

[Coronis]

Stumping in general is pretty tame nowadays even in SC, since batsmen don't really need to often step out for hitting a six. But yeah, I found both of this arguments a bit eh. I never said Knott is unviable. And in terms of judging cricketers in their respective eras (the way it should be, not ATG teams), Knott is definitely an ATG, probably greater than Flower. But I just feel in a practical scenario, Flower keeping will do more good than harm; or that in practicality, there isn't a lot separating Knott from say Jayawardene or Saha.

Probably not, and I’d say it could be quite subjective at the highest levels. But there’s a lot between them and Flower. As PEWS said, I’d rather pick Flower as a batsman and have a proper keeper, if I’m picking him.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Probably not, and I’d say it could be quite subjective at the highest levels. But there’s a lot between them and Flower. As PEWS said, I’d rather pick Flower as a batsman and have a proper keeper, if I’m picking him.

I get that sentiment, and in most practical teams will do the same, but given I have to choose only one for my team to field; I will probably go with Flower more often than not, even if he have to bear the gloves.

 

[kyear2]

Some maths here:

A drop catch on average costs 25 runs. On average if a keeper gets 5 catches per match, that means for 100 catches it will take them 20 matches. 10 additional drops means 250 runs. Now on these 20 matches, they will bat an average of 35 innings. 10 extra runs each innings means 350 runs.

Is it too over simplification? Very much is. Many things here are dependent on match situations, some catches can cost 200 runs, sometime the better batsman can score a 150. But mathematical, it was hardly wrong.


(Yes, I posted this very obnoxiously)

A drop catch can cost anything from noting to a triple hundred, stop minimizing an entire disciple in the sport.
It demoralizes the bowler and the team and it's an extra wicket you have to try to create.

Ian Healy is the best keeper I've seen in my lifetime, he was brilliant, and was invaluable to Warne and co. I also acknowledge that batting now plays a role for your no. 7 and 8, but to to totally diminish and devalue the entire disciple is just ridiculous and being taken way too far.

 

[CodeOfWisden]

That makes no sense, but carry on.

makes sense for all the international teams, Foakes has been kicked from the team, Saha’s career is over , all the up and coming wk bats are proper batsman.

England even played an actually bad wicketkeeper like Bairstow over Foakes.

 

[CodeOfWisden]

A drop catch can cost anything from noting to a triple hundred, stop minimizing an entire disciple in the sport.
It demoralizes the bowler and the team and it's an extra wicket you have to try to create.

Ian Healy is the best keeper I've seen in my lifetime, he was brilliant, and was invaluable to Warne and co. I also acknowledge that batting now plays a role for your no. 7 and 8, but to to totally diminish and devalue the entire disciple is just ridiculous and being taken way too far.

An Ian Healy prototype won’t have a career in this era, for me he was an absolutely mediocre player.

Its shameful that a player like him got to play 100 tests, he was absolutely utterly Rubbish, a poor mans Saha.

 

[Coronis]

An Ian Healy prototype won’t have a career in this era, for me he was an absolutely mediocre player.

Its shameful that a player like him got to play 100 tests, he was absolutely utterly Rubbish, a poor mans Saha.

Possibly the worst take I’ve ever seen on this website.

Kudos

 

[capt_Luffy]

A drop catch can cost anything from noting to a triple hundred, stop minimizing an entire disciple in the sport.
It demoralizes the bowler and the team and it's an extra wicket you have to try to create.

Ian Healy is the best keeper I've seen in my lifetime, he was brilliant, and was invaluable to Warne and co. I also acknowledge that batting now plays a role for your no. 7 and 8, but to to totally diminish and devalue the entire disciple is just ridiculous and being taken way too far.

I ain't. I said on average, the no. was provided by Peterhrt. And a can be dropped from anyone, anywhere.

No one is diminishing and devalueing an entire discipline lol. But when the difference is that high, you have to call your shots.

 

[ataraxia]

A drop catch can cost anything from noting to a triple hundred, stop minimizing an entire disciple in the sport.
It demoralizes the bowler and the team and it's an extra wicket you have to try to create.

I take it that you don't believe in batting average either?

 

[Coronis]

I take it that you don't believe in batting average either?

Batting average is a myth made up by people who try to argue for subpar players without the *it* factor.

 

[kyear2]

An Ian Healy prototype won’t have a career in this era, for me he was an absolutely mediocre player.

Its shameful that a player like him got to play 100 tests, he was absolutely utterly Rubbish, a poor mans Saha.

This is almost certainly the most ignorant post I've ever read on the forum.

And this is coming from (some of) the same crowd that wouldn't select a McGrath over a worse bowler who could bat better, but whose team away success is predicated on Bumrah.

Healy was nothing short of brilliant, and quite frankly that comment has stripped what credibility you possibly had in this argument.

 

[kyear2]

makes sense for all the international teams, Foakes has been kicked from the team, Saha’s career is over , all the up and coming wk bats are proper batsman.

England even played an actually bad wicketkeeper like Bairstow over Foakes.

And how is that working out?

 

[capt_Luffy]

And how is that working out?

Better than before really; or you would expect atleast some team to field a low 20s keeper.

 

[kyear2]

Better than before really; or you would expect atleast some team to field a low 20s keeper.

Just because teams keep making dumb divisions, doesn't make it right.

I think Pant was sloppy today, quite sloppy, but... Nothing will change and a much better keeper in Jurel will continue to watch, even though he too can bat.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Just because teams keep making dumb divisions, doesn't make it right.

I think Pant was sloppy today, quite sloppy, but... Nothing will change and a much better keeper in Jurel will continue to watch, even though he too can bat.

So you mean every team in the world is dumb to play a fair keeper who averages mid 30s over a greater mid 20s one??

India lossed this match for many reasons. Toothpaste bowling, middle order collapse, bad field placements, Pant keeping was hardly one of them. You want to play Jurel, in place of whom again?? And fwiw, Jurel doesn't even qualify as a keeper batsman. He doesn't even keeps in IPL, he himself is very much a batsman keeper, just one of the safer ones.

 

[kyear2]

So you mean every team in the world is dumb to play a fair keeper who averages mid 30s over a greater mid 20s one??

India lossed this match for many reasons. Toothpaste bowling, middle order collapse, bad field placements, Pant keeping was hardly one of them. You want to play Jurel, in place of whom again?? And fwiw, Jurel doesn't even qualify as a keeper batsman. He doesn't even keeps in IPL, he himself is very much a batsman keeper, just one of the safer ones.

Where did I say he was the reason?

But how many half chances / chances did he not come close to?

His keeping since his return hasn't been good, he looks untidy and is missing chances.

But according to you it's all good because he may score a match winning innings.

And if you can't watch him and Jurel and see how much better he is, then.......

And re the loss, at one point I swear the commentators were just repeating the stuff I've been advocating.

First thing this morning talking about the importance of having quality in the slips, involving Dravid and VVS and now demoralizing it was to see chances not even go to hand.

Then the impact that Jaiswal's scoring rate had on the game, he out the bowlers and the captain on the back foot and set a ridiculous platform for the game.

And yeah, that no tail can consistently make up for weak middle order, especially not against good to great (which it's arguable if it was) opposition.

There's more, but no need to go further.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Where did I say he was the reason?

But how many half chances / chances did he not come close to?

His keeping since his return hasn't been good, he looks untidy and is missing chances.

But according to you it's all good because he may score a match winning innings.

And if you can't watch him and Jurel and see how much better he is, then.......

And re the loss, at one point I swear the commentators were just repeating the stuff I've been advocating.

First thing this morning talking about the importance of having quality in the slips, involving Dravid and VVS and now demoralizing it was to see chances not even go to hand.

Then the impact that Jaiswal's scoring rate had on the game, he out the bowlers and the captain on the back foot and set a ridiculous platform for the game.

And yeah, that no tail can consistently make up for weak middle order, especially not against good to great (which it's arguable if it was) opposition.

There's more, but no need to go further.

Lol. Commentators were also talking about how we Indians are too good to be "proud" of our home runs. They were edging me so much I turned off the comms. Don't bring them here.
As for Pant's keeping, it really has been mostly fine. I believe most Indian fans don't want Jurel to come in right now. Not because he isn't a good enough bat, just because a batting slot isn't available atm.

 

[kyear2]

Lol. Commentators were also talking about how we Indians are too good to be "proud" of our home runs. They were edging me so much I turned off the comms. Don't bring them here.
As for Pant's keeping, it really has been mostly fine. I believe most Indian fans don't want Jurel to come in right now. Not because he isn't a good enough bat, just because a batting slot isn't available atm.

It's really not fine, but carry on.