The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[subshakerz]

Exactly.

Not saying Warne isn't great, just saying if there's someone to exploit, it would be him.

Yeah except for 7-fer in 93.

Warne would take some stick but Aus don't need to rely on him until the 4th or 5th day.

 

[subshakerz]

5 specialists bowlers is excessive and just weakens the batting.

It is excessive moreso in an ATG XI context. Otherwise countries like India and SA used it well but it's an exception since they have so many ARs.

 

[Slifer]

Yeah except for 7-fer in 93.

Warne would take some stick but Aus don't need to rely on him until the 4th or 5th day.

And what did he do for the rest of the series? Exactly. It's like if Australia were playing India, Warne would be the one to target generally not because he isn't great but because their lineup is a bad match up for him. WI aren't as good vs spin as Indians but they aren't hopeless like Eng.

From a WI pov it would be like taking a WI team to India or Pakistan. If I took Ambrose, he'd likely be the weak link relative to Marshall and co.

 

[subshakerz]

And what did he do for the rest of the series? Exactly. It's like if Australia were playing India, Warne would be the one to target generally not because he isn't great but because their lineup is a bad match up for him. WI aren't as good vs spin as Indians but they aren't hopeless like Eng.

From a WI pov it would be like taking a WI team to India or Pakistan. If I took Ambrose, he'd likely be the weak link relative to Marshall and co.

Yes but Warne will win Aus solo that spinning pitch game at least once a series. For the rest, three world class pacers is sufficient and the dividends of a fourth versus a spinner are questionable.

 

[Slifer]

Yes but Warne will win Aus solo that spinning pitch game at least once a series. For the rest, three world class pacers is sufficient and the dividends of a fourth versus a spinner are questionable.

He didn't solo in 1995, 96/97 and especially not '99. Those were all McGrath shows. My point? WI will much much more likely succumb to Glenn and Dennis and any other pacer than Warne. Surely you're not against that notion. If the argument is that overall a spinner is desirable in most attacks, then yes I agree so long as they're of the Warne/Murali/O'Reilly class or just below.

 

[subshakerz]

He didn't solo in 1995, 96/97 and especially not '99. Those were all McGrath shows. My point? WI will much much more likely succumb to Glenn and Dennis and any other pacer than Warne. Surely you're not against that notion. If the argument is that overall a spinner is desirable in most attacks, then yes I agree so long as they're of the Warne/Murali/O'Reilly class or just below.

Agreed Obviously frontline pacers are more important but my point is that a 4th bowler position isn't a deal breaker and I'm going with Warne rather than a 4th seamer for those few situations when the pitch or match situations is more receptive.

 

[Slifer]

Agreed Obviously frontline pacers are more important but my point is that a 4th bowler position isn't a deal breaker and I'm going with Warne rather than a 4th seamer for those few situations when the pitch or match situations is more receptive.

That's fair

 

[kyear2]

He didn't solo in 1995, 96/97 and especially not '99. Those were all McGrath shows. My point? WI will much much more likely succumb to Glenn and Dennis and any other pacer than Warne. Surely you're not against that notion. If the argument is that overall a spinner is desirable in most attacks, then yes I agree so long as they're of the Warne/Murali/O'Reilly class or just below.

Exactly.

 

[kyear2]

Agreed Obviously frontline pacers are more important but my point is that a 4th bowler position isn't a deal breaker and I'm going with Warne rather than a 4th seamer for those few situations when the pitch or match situations is more receptive.

I'm not questioning Warne's selection for an Aussie team, he's an automatic. If he played for us he's also automatic. But unless it's one of the big 3, it's less so, especially compared to the alternative pacer.

What I was saying is that having a spinner for spinners sake isn't a must for me. And secondly, Warne wouldn't be the x factor that some believe, because I don't think he was as great vs his contemporary greats and really good players as comparable pacers.

I'm not saying that Warne wasn't great or one of the greatest bowlers ever. But if there is a relative player to "target", it would be him.

So when it said you need a spinner in India, for him that's a wash because he was taken apart, and playing into a strength.

 

[subshakerz]

I'm not questioning Warne's selection for an Aussie team, he's an automatic. If he played for us he's also automatic. But unless it's one of the big 3, it's less so, especially compared to the alternative pacer.

What I was saying is that having a spinner for spinners sake isn't a must for me. And secondly, Warne wouldn't be the x factor that some believe, because I don't think he was as great vs his contemporary greats and really good players as comparable pacers.

I'm not saying that Warne wasn't great or one of the greatest bowlers ever. But if there is a relative player to "target", it would be him.

So when it said you need a spinner in India, for him that's a wash because he was taken apart, and playing into a strength.

I don't see Aus losing to anybody because of just Warne in an ATG setup.

And Warne wasn't taken apart in India in 2004/5 if you recall. He had a holding role then which he did well as the pacers did most of the damage.

By the way, virtually no player is a must if you want to go this route. I may replace Ponting with Martyn if I am touring India. I may want Gillespie over Lillee if touring SC.

Warne I maintain will be a handful for any lineup on a 4th or 5th day spinning wicket.

 

[kyear2]

I don't see Aus losing to anybody because of just Warne in an ATG setup.

And Warne wasn't taken apart in India in 2004/5 if you recall. He had a holding role then which he did well as the pacers did most of the damage.

By the way, virtually no player is a must if you want to go this route. I may replace Ponting with Martyn if I am touring India. I may want Gillespie over Lillee if touring SC.

Warne I maintain will be a handful for any lineup on a 4th or 5th day spinning wicket.

Where did I say lose?

And how many caveats are in that sentence?

 

[subshakerz]

Where did I say lose?

And how many caveats are in that sentence?

That's not a caveat. That's the specific purpose to play a specialist spinner as 4th bowling option.

 

[kyear2]

That's not a caveat. That's the specific purpose to play a specialist spinner as 4th bowling option.

To be effective on day 4 or 5, on a crumbling or spinning pitch?

 

[Coronis]

Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Hutton
Root
Hammond
Barrington
Knott+
Laker/Verity
Trueman
Anderson
Barnes

I think I’m pretty settled with my English ATG XI at this point.

Trueman and Barnes to take the new ball. The tail is a bit weak, but Verity is also an option. I kind of prefer Laker though, simply because Verity really didn’t take many wickets for a spinner (I know there are factors at play but 3.6 wpm is quite low for a great bowler, especially a spinner)

 

[subshakerz]

To be effective on day 4 or 5, on a crumbling or spinning pitch?

Generally the former and specifically the latter.

 

[kyear2]

Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Hutton
Root
Hammond
Barrington
Knott+
Laker/Verity
Trueman
Anderson
Barnes

I think I’m pretty settled with my English ATG XI at this point.

Trueman and Barnes to take the new ball. The tail is a bit weak, but Verity is also an option. I kind of prefer Laker though, simply because Verity really didn’t take many wickets for a spinner (I know there are factors at play but 3.6 wpm is quite low for a great bowler, especially a spinner)

Not going to relitigate the Sutcliffe thing, and it does made sense from the stand point if the greater opening partnership, just doesn't work for me.

If you're going to play Barnes I feel like a Botham is a must for the extra pace.

Me personally I prefer Tyson to open with Trueman, and Verify may have had a lower wpm, but Laker had a match that skewed his numbers a little, so yeah, and Verity then shores up the batting.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Hutton
Root
Hammond
Barrington
Knott+
Laker/Verity
Trueman
Anderson
Barnes

I think I’m pretty settled with my English ATG XI at this point.

Trueman and Barnes to take the new ball. The tail is a bit weak, but Verity is also an option. I kind of prefer Laker though, simply because Verity really didn’t take many wickets for a spinner (I know there are factors at play but 3.6 wpm is quite low for a great bowler, especially a spinner)

Excluding Grace and Ranji:

Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Hutton
Hammond
Root
Botham
Knott+
Rhodes
Larwood
Trueman
Barnes

I think England needs a better 5th bowler than Hammond, and if Botham plays then I will go with Rhodes to balance out the batting a bit; I think he was hardly worse than Laker/Verity/Underwood anyways. Larwood is there ahead of Anderson as Jimmy and Fred were very similar bowler, both somewhat restricted away, and I need some extra pace from my other pacer.

On including Grace and Ranji:

Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Hutton
Hammond
Ranji
Grace*
Knott+
Larwood
Laker
Trueman
Barnes

So basically Grace as the 5th bowler, controversial but I think works with Hammond as 6th.

 

[Days of Grace]

A New Zealand test XI:

GM Turner
B Sutcliffe
KS Williamson
MD Crowe
LRPL Taylor
BB McCullum (wk)
CL Cairns
DL Vettori
RJ Hadlee
N Wagner
TA Boult

Bond didn't play enough tests to demand inclusion and I like Boult the left-hander complimenting Hadlee. The middle-order picks itself, with those chosen quite far ahead of the rest. Turner is a must as an opener. I picked Sutcliffe to partner him. Left-hander and he was quality.

 

[Coronis]

A New Zealand test XI:

GM Turner
B Sutcliffe
KS Williamson
MD Crowe
LRPL Taylor
BB McCullum (wk)
CL Cairns
DL Vettori
RJ Hadlee
N Wagner
TA Boult

Bond didn't play enough tests to demand inclusion and I like Boult the left-hander complimenting Hadlee. The middle-order picks itself, with those chosen quite far ahead of the rest. Turner is a must as an opener. I picked Sutcliffe to partner him. Left-hander and he was quality.

I’d rather have Watling than McCullum as keeper personally.

Oh and you used to as well aha wow.

I would choose Watling in an alltime NZ Test XI. He would provide balance to an aggressive lower order of Cairns, Vettori and Hadlee.

May I ask what changed your opinion?

(Don’t say Bazball)

 

[Days of Grace]

I’d rather have Watling than McCullum as keeper personally.

Oh and you used to as well aha wow.



May I ask what changed your opinion?

(Don’t say Bazball)

True. I guess I chose McCullum this time because he was the more aggressive, dynamic batsman. But as designated keepers, McCullum averaged 34 whilst Watling averaged 39. I could easily be swayed to choose Watling instead if only going by their record as keepers.

GM Turner
B Sutcliffe
KS Williamson
MD Crowe
LRPL Taylor
BJ Watling (wk)
CL Cairns
DL Vettori
RJ Hadlee
N Wagner
TA Boult

Who would captain the team? Crowe seems the first choice but he had a difficult personality so he might clash with Turner and Hadlee.