The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[kyear2]

Well Roger Harper wasn’t Gibbs and these stats are meaningless without context but just for fun.

1980’s Windies without Roger Harper

58 matches 26 wins 6 losses 26 draws

1980’s Windies with Roger Harper

24 matches 17 wins 2 losses 5 draws

And Harper is basically a Sobers level spinner. He also primarily played on spin friendly pitches.

Also, as a batman, who would you prefer to face?

Part of what made the WI a fearsome force to face was the consistent pressure of knowing that the onslaught was never ending. Marshall and Holding came off, it was then Garner and Walsh, or who ever made up the squad at the time. Croft and Garner must have been a treat to face as first and second change.

Then there's Warne, who I believe would be the Australia bowler most likely to be the weak spot. He was less than great vs great or even really good opposition, he would be the one most likely to be attacked or even taken apart.

 

[capt_Luffy]

And Harper is basically a Sobers level spinner. He also primarily played on spin friendly pitches.

Also, as a batman, who would you prefer to face?

Part of what made the WI a fearsome force to face was the consistent pressure of knowing that the onslaught was never ending. Marshall and Holding came off, it was then Garner and Walsh, or who ever made up the squad at the time. Croft and Garner must have been a treat to face as first and second change.

Then there's Warne, who I believe would be the Australia bowler most likely to be the weak spot. He was less than great vs great or even really good opposition, he would be the one most likely to be attacked or even taken apart.

Warne being termed the Aussie weakling is rather........ Interesting.

 

[kyear2]

Warne being termed the Aussie weakling is rather........ Interesting.

In this context? Hardly.

India and Lara were very effective against him and Australia would have murdered him as well.

Lillee went toe to toe with arguably the two greatest players of pace ever and more than geld his own.
McGrath did the same vs Lara and Sachin.

 

[capt_Luffy]

In this context? Hardly.

India and Lara were very effective against him and Australia would have murdered him as well.

Lillee went toe to toe with arguably the two greatest players of pace ever and more than geld his own.
McGrath did the same vs Lara and Sachin.

Australia would not had murdered Warne. There is really no basis for that claim. Aussie in general weren't great players of spin. Warne could very well have the upper hand on Richards, Greenidge and Chanderpaul.

 

[kyear2]

Australia would not had murdered Warne. There is really no basis for that claim. Aussie in general weren't great players of spin. Warne could very well have the upper hand on Richards, Greenidge and Chanderpaul.

Richards, contrary to popular belief wasn't useless against spin. And there's still Lara, Sobers, Headley, Walcott, Worrell.....

There's no doubt in my mind, that some / of the WI bats benefitted from not having to face Marshall, Warne benefitted from not having to face his batting line up.

He did appreciably worse than most arg's when faced with really good, far less geeta opposition.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Richards, contrary to popular belief wasn't useless against spin. And there's still Lara, Sobers, Headley, Walcott, Worrell.....

There's no doubt in my mind, that some / of the WI bats benefitted from not having to face Marshall, Warne benefitted from not having to face his batting line up.

He did appreciably worse than most arg's when faced with really good, far less geeta opposition.

Richards wasn't useless vs spin, but I think Warne will have the advantage over him. And all the players after Lara aren't in this discussion.
Again, source?? As Murali seemed to have dominated the Aussie line-up pretty hard. Ponting here was the lucky one.

 

[kyear2]

Richards wasn't useless vs spin, but I think Warne will have the advantage over him. And all the players after Lara aren't in this discussion.
Again, source?? As Murali seemed to have dominated the Aussie line-up pretty hard. Ponting here was the lucky one.

The argument is that in an ATG contest that the WI would miss a spinner. My WI at xi is

Worrell
Greenidge
Headley
Richards
Lara
Sobers
Walcott
Marshall
Holding
Ambrose
Garner

Think they would take Warne to the cleaners, especially compared to the other players. Based on how he was handled by India and Lara (and his overall numbers vs the Windies), yes he, and not McGrath, Lillee, Cummins / Lindwall / Davidson, would be the relative weak link.

 

[capt_Luffy]

The argument is that in an ATG contest that the WI would miss a spinner. My WI at xi is

Worrell
Greenidge
Headley
Richards
Lara
Sobers
Walcott
Marshall
Holding
Ambrose
Garner

Think they would take Warne to the cleaners, especially compared to the other players. Based on how he was handled by India and Lara (and his overall numbers vs the Windies), yes he, and not McGrath, Lillee, Cummins / Lindwall / Davidson, would be the relative weak link.

I would end this argument with the fact that you are really off the mark. I think Warner is a top tier ATG spinner and will hold his own against most here, if not all. I rate him higher than Ambrose, so really am founding this argument futile. And oh, Aussies murdering Warne must had been a joke.

 

[kyear2]

I would end this argument with the fact that you are really off the mark. I think Warner is a top tier ATG spinner and will hold his own against most here, if not all. I rate him higher than Ambrose, so really am founding this argument futile. And oh, Aussies murdering Warne must had been a joke.

I think he's on par with Amby as well, but that doesn't mean he's stood up well to even really good players of spin. He didn't

 

[capt_Luffy]

I think he's on par with Amby as well, but that doesn't mean he's stood up well to even really good players of spin. He didn't

And like, of you mean Sehwag, Lara and Tendulkar, he didn't. But there are many more batsmen he did great against and many of these batsmen had tough battles against much worse spinners.

 

[subshakerz]

And Harper is basically a Sobers level spinner. He also primarily played on spin friendly pitches.

Also, as a batman, who would you prefer to face?

Part of what made the WI a fearsome force to face was the consistent pressure of knowing that the onslaught was never ending. Marshall and Holding came off, it was then Garner and Walsh, or who ever made up the squad at the time. Croft and Garner must have been a treat to face as first and second change.

Then there's Warne, who I believe would be the Australia bowler most likely to be the weak spot. He was less than great vs great or even really good opposition, he would be the one most likely to be attacked or even taken apart.

Gibbs was so miserly that he may end up keeping the pressure even if he isn't taking wickets.

Warne is a liability in the first half of the match but you already have pace battalion to take that load. I think even against WI, sans Lara, will find Warne to be trouble on Day 4 and 5.

 

[Coronis]

I think he's on par with Amby as well, but that doesn't mean he's stood up well to even really good players of spin. He didn't

I mean, you ranking him higher than any Aussie bowler by McGrath and simultaneously calling him the weak link in the attack is kind of strange.

Gibbs was so miserly that he may end up keeping the pressure even if he isn't taking wickets.

Warne is a liability in the first half of the match but you already have pace battalion to take that load. I think even against WI, sans Lara, will find Warne to be trouble on Day 4 and 5.

I think this is quite an important point. He can really tie down an end for a extended periods of time and give the pacers extra rest.

And of course, depending on the pitch, provide an X-factor that they can’t.

 

[subshakerz]

I think this is quite an important point. He can really tie down an end for a extended periods of time and give the pacers extra rest.

And of course, depending on the pitch, provide an X-factor that they can’t.

Yeah I used to be all for pace quartets but then I realised that three pacers of quality is sufficient unless there's a big dropoff.

Same way I realised that 5 specialist bowling options in tests is also superfluous 90 percent of the time.

 

[Prince EWS]

Also, as a batman, who would you prefer to face?

Catwoman probably.

 

[Coronis]

Catwoman probably.

Who looks better in latex, Lance Gibbs or Michael Holding?

 

[Prince EWS]

Who looks better in latex, Lance Gibbs or Michael Holding?

Joel Garner for his cooking.

 

[Slifer]

The argument is that in an ATG contest that the WI would miss a spinner. My WI at xi is

Worrell
Greenidge
Headley
Richards
Lara
Sobers
Walcott
Marshall
Holding
Ambrose
Garner

Think they would take Warne to the cleaners, especially compared to the other players. Based on how he was handled by India and Lara (and his overall numbers vs the Windies), yes he, and not McGrath, Lillee, Cummins / Lindwall / Davidson, would be the relative weak link.

I agree. Warne is no weak link but if there's a bowler to attack by a WI batting lineup, it'll most likely be him. Lillee, McGrath and Lindwall/Davidson/Cummins would hold their own in most cases. Then again Warne would probably want them to attack, so that he could outfox them. Hmmmm....food for thought. Anyway, when Warne actually came up vs the WI of his time, it was McGrath who dominated the declining WI batting not Warne.

 

[Slifer]

Yeah I used to be all for pace quartets but then I realised that three pacers of quality is sufficient unless there's a big dropoff.

Same way I realised that 5 specialist bowling options in tests is also superfluous 90 percent of the time.

Agreed.

 

[kyear2]

I agree. Warne is no weak link but if there's a bowler to attack by a WI batting lineup, it'll most likely be him. Lillee, McGrath and Lindwall/Davidson/Cummins would hold their own in most cases. Then again Warne would probably want them to attack, so that he could outfox them. Hmmmm....food for thought. Anyway, when Warne actually came up vs the WI of his time, it was McGrath who dominated the declining WI batting not Warne.

Exactly.

Not saying Warne isn't great, just saying if there's someone to exploit, it would be him.

 

[kyear2]

Agreed.

5 specialists bowlers is excessive and just weakens the batting.