Andy Flower vs Alan Knott

[Bolo.]

No it means they felt Flower's workload was too much coz of batting 4 or 5 and keeping. I dont recall it ever being like he was kakmal behind the stumps. He was fine. Not outstanding but not so bad that it becomes a cost.

Do you remember his keeping in tests with a degree of clarity? I saw him keep (minimally admittedly), but I remember squat about how good a job he did. It's possible that my lack of memory reflects well on him. A good keeper is not very memorable. But significantly more likely that I just don't remember.

 

[honestbharani]

Do you remember his keeping in tests with a degree of clarity? I saw him keep (minimally admittedly), but I remember squat about how good a job he did. It's possible that my lack of memory reflects well on him. A good keeper is not very memorable. But significantly more likely that I just don't remember.

I never said he was a great keeper. If you remember squat about a keeper, it most likely means he was competent enough and was not bad by any stretch of the imagination, which is what I have been saying all along.

And yeah I have watched him keep from the 1992 WC itself and almost everytime their games were televised for us, esp. the period between 1995 and 1999 when I followed any and all cricket because of ESPN and Star Sports coming to India and cable becoming affordable for us around that time.

 

[ma1978]

there is more to a kepper than just catches. letting through byes also hurts the bowlers, not so much in runs but in not being able to bowl certain areas because of the risk of byes. good keepers can stand closer to the stumps for slow and medium pace and stop batsmen walking out of the ground. good keepers can also allow slips to cover more arc as they dont need 1st to be so close. And good keepers put doubt in a batsmans mind when he thinks 'if he nicks it, he's certainly out' as opposed to maybe out.

each drop, on average is worth the average of the batsman dropped. add to that runs saved through less byes and extra pressure. you have to be bradman to make up for all of that.

if this is correct, why do modern teams consistently pick the better bat vs the best pure wicket keeper. I assume they are not actively trying to lose

 

[Thala_0710]

@Thala_0710 not to get too far off topic but basically.

Bradman | Tendulkar | Sobers | Richards | Hobbs
Lara | Smith | Hutton

Gavaskar | Chappell | Hammond | Ponting | Kallis


Marshall | McGrath | Hadlee
Steyn | Warne | Muralitharan | Ambrose

Imran | Lillee | Donald | Wasim | Garner

Ok let's not get too far off topic, but I have Imran, Wasim and Donald in the same tier 1. So basically it is more a difference of opinion in how much the gap is in their primary skills. My only point was it isn't inconsistent to have both opinions at the same time

 

[Bolo.]

I never said he was a great keeper. If you remember squat about a keeper, it most likely means he was competent enough and was not bad by any stretch of the imagination, which is what I have been saying all along.

And yeah I have watched him keep from the 1992 WC itself and almost everytime their games were televised for us, esp. the period between 1995 and 1999 when I followed any and all cricket because of ESPN and Star Sports coming to India and cable becoming affordable for us around that time.

Coolio.

Does your impression of him as a competent keeper align with the non-Flower haters I have read on CW. Competent even if looking a bit sloppy?

I'm curious about what affordable was in India at the time? It was really expensive in RSA, not sure of the price at all, but maybe in the region of 40-50 USD

 

[capt_Luffy]

When I see you say **** like this I'm convinced you never watched any of these guys play. No he wouldn't have. Not close, Kallis was one of the top 10 to have done it. That take is asinine.

Imran wasn't a front line batsman, he was a borderline test level batsman. Logie wasn't a test standard batsman, he and Hooper were below average test batsmen. Kallis was often the 4th bowler and 3rd seamer for SA. If Imran was front line, so was he.

Kallis and Sachin played in the same era and came out with the same stats. Kallis also had insane longevity.

Your POV is inconsistent and based on a style of cricket and priorities that's never existed.

You believe that catching on no level has matters, slip nor wicket-keeping, strange thinking that's where most of dismissals are taken. Strange when everyone knows how important their cordons were to the success of Davidson, Lillee, Hadlee, the Quartet, Marshall, McGrath, Donald, Steyn etc..., that guys like Simpson made his team initially as a slip, Hooper kept his place because of it etc etc.

And no it's not the popular one here. Knott is easily defeating Flower and the one poll that was done to prove I was wrong about the bowling thing.

View attachment 42069

You saying I'm wrong and the results of actual polls are different things all together.

Also View attachment 42070

Again filtering through polls as you like to prove your point..... Classic!! Saying it was done to prove you wrong is top meme material! Anyways, asking who should be in an ATXI attack and asking who the better cricketer are two very different things. Also, never said slip fielding didn't matter. I voted yes for the above poll. It just matters no way you made it to be. And you really have a habit of glorifying the fielding of a few and underrating that of others.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Coolio.

Does your impression of him as a competent keeper align with the non-Flower haters I have read on CW. Competent even if looking a bit sloppy?

I'm curious about what affordable was in India at the time? It was really expensive in RSA, not sure of the price at all, but maybe in the region of 40-50 USD

Per month? Drop a 0.

 

[honestbharani]

Coolio.

Does your impression of him as a competent keeper align with the non-Flower haters I have read on CW. Competent even if looking a bit sloppy?

I'm curious about what affordable was in India at the time? It was really expensive in RSA, not sure of the price at all, but maybe in the region of 40-50 USD

You forget affordability starts from how much you and your folks made at home. We were pretty lower middle class and cable was available from around 1993 but really only became affordable to us around 1995. It got a bit cheaper. Exact cost IIRC was around 100 Rs. per month and our home rent was around 700 Rs. per month, for reference.

 

[Bolo.]

You forget affordability starts from how much you and your folks made at home. We were pretty lower middle class and cable was available from around 1993 but really only became affordable to us around 1995. It got a bit cheaper. Exact cost IIRC was around 100 Rs. per month and our home rent was around 700 Rs. per month, for reference.

Holy **** thats cheap for rent when currency converting. Most of the countries I have lived in have been cheap, but nothing like that unless living in the sticks. What city?

My first reaction to seeing 15% of rent on TV is that it's insanely unaffordable. But looking at our expenses, qe probably spend close to 15% of rent if you add togerther modern day expenses like TV and internet.

 

[Coronis]

if this is correct, why do modern teams consistently pick the better bat vs the best pure wicket keeper. I assume they are not actively trying to lose

Because everyone is still searching for their own Gilchrist

 

[ma1978]

Because everyone is still searching for their own Gilchrist

Because the old model of wicketkeeper is outdated and skills have developed

 

[capt_Luffy]

Because everyone is still searching for their own Gilchrist

Tbf to them, Pakistan with Rizwan and India with with Pant have found their own Gilchrist. Too early for Jamie but there's certainly potential. Overall, you can't survive long in a good team nowadays going sub 30 while keeping.

 

[honestbharani]

Holy **** thats cheap for rent when currency converting. Most of the countries I have lived in have been cheap, but nothing like that unless living in the sticks. What city?

My first reaction to seeing 15% of rent on TV is that it's insanely unaffordable. But looking at our expenses, qe probably spend close to 15% of rent if you add togerther modern day expenses like TV and internet.

haha currency conversion is a bad way to look at things though. That is why I compared it to the cost of rent.

Come on, you know by now I belong to the great, beautiful, historic and cultured haven called Chennai.

 

[Coronis]

Because the old model of wicketkeeper is outdated and skills have developed

No, because they want a quality keeper who is also a quality batsman, which is quite rare. So they pick better batsmen and subpar keepers since they’re easier to find.

 

[Bolo.]

haha currency conversion is a bad way to look at things though. That is why I compared it to the cost of rent.

Come on, you know by now I belong to the great, beautiful, historic and cultured haven called Chennai.

Damn, that's cheap for Chennai. I vaguely understand the swings the country (and especially city) have gone through, but it still seems low.. How much would the same apartment cost today?

I'm currency converting off the cheap countries I have lived in FTR. I understand that places like the UK and Korea aren't really relevant.

 

[honestbharani]

How much would the same apartment cost today?

Rental? It was a 2 Bedroom apartment, it would rent to about 25K today.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Rental? It was a 2 Bedroom apartment, it would rent to about 25K today.

Damn inflation!!!

 

[Bolo.]

Rental? It was a 2 Bedroom apartment, it would rent to about 25K today.

That's... slightly different.

 

[capt_Luffy]

That's... slightly different.

Reassuringly, cable still costs only around 500.

 

[Bolo.]

Reassuringly, cable still costs only around 500.

That is weirdly cheap. That's normal cable, not something like IPTV? I pay a similar amount for IPTV, but I think cable is usually in the 50 dollar range in most countries I've lived in.