Andy Flower vs Alan Knott

[Thala_0710]

Flower the better cricketer but Knott the better wkb

 

[kyear2]

Yeah, that too was influential for my stand.

Confirmation bias, you're actively looking for what you want to hear and ignoring everything else.

I will say it again, with his batting being as good as it was, and his keeping was as good as you're choosing to believe... Don't you think he would be in the argument for greatest keeper batsman of all time.

Fun fact, he just isn't. Even in his Cricinfo bio, his wicket-keeping isn't even mentioned.

Oh, and your standard of, "oh, not that bad" , isn't exactly all world worthy.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Confirmation bias, you're actively looking for what you want to hear and ignoring everything else.

I will say it again, with his batting being as good as it was, and his keeping was as good as you're choosing to believe... Don't you think he would be in the argument for greatest keeper batsman of all time.

Fun fact, he just isn't. Even in his Cricinfo bio, his wicket-keeping isn't even mentioned.

Oh, and your standard of, "oh, not that bad" , isn't exactly all world worthy.

I am actively looking at evidence really. Not a single person till now pointed to him dropping much. Among those who remember watching him, OS called him untidy and HB said him to be decently good, as did my dad. I don't really care if you think he isn't, him being just decent behind stumps, which mostly points to him being, is enough for me to take him as a keeper over any keeper averaging under 40.

 

[capt_Luffy]

As a matter of fact, I also don't think the general difference between the quality of Allan Knott and say Prasanna Jayawardene, Wriddhiman Saha or Ben Foakes is really significant. Knott is definitely better than them at batting and especially as a keeper, but was it really that better to make much difference in a match?? Maybe, but don't have enough evidence to make that judgement really. Haven't watched his games live and footage is rare and biased in compilation forms. So yeah, not sure on that. Older keepers definitely gets mythologised to a certain degree.

 

[kyear2]

As a matter of fact, I also don't think the general difference between the quality of Allan Knott and say Prasanna Jayawardene, Wriddhiman Saha or Ben Foakes is really significant. Knott is definitely better than them at batting and especially as a keeper, but was it really that better to make much difference in a match?? Maybe, but don't have enough evidence to make that judgement really. Haven't watched his games live and footage is rare and biased in compilation forms. So yeah, not sure on that. Older keepers definitely gets mythologised to a certain degree.

That's strange coming from you.

But with the pitch conditions of old and the amount of spin, they literally had to be better. Much better

 

[capt_Luffy]

That's strange coming from you.

But with the pitch conditions of old and the amount of spin, they literally had to be better. Much better

By that logic, you have to think older Batsman where better, much better. Similarly, you can't rate any spinner pre 70s at all. Can't have your cake and eat it too dear.

 

[_00_deathscar]

This is why this argument doesn't track for me.

I've seen Dujon hit crucial knocks, he may not average 40, but when needed more often than not he also came through.

So he's, you can still get that Gabba 90.

You ideally want one, who not only doesn't make mistakes often, but also takes the half chances and creates a few.

If you can get that with a mid 30's average, that's great.

Coronis just gave you two examples from ongoing matches where keeping blunders cost their team opportunities, and your response is, well if they can make it up with the bat it doesn't matter. But it does, it can cost victories.
I told you I went through match reports from an old India series a week or so, and on two instances it specially mentioned in the summaries that dropped slip catches cost India the opportunity to win, your response was to bring up Pakistan from the 90's.

I know part of it is philosophically driven, you basically believe bat deep wins the day. You don't pick the best bowlers, you chose the best ones who could bat, you don't choose the best keeper, you choose the one who can bat the best. But matches have never been won that way, not consistently. Look at Bumrah, McGrath etc, do you drop them?
I think it was you that said you can always count on between 50 and 75 an innings from a Imran / Hadlee or Jadeja / Ashwin, I've consistently said that relying on such lower order heroics isn't the best formula for success.
You also seems to believe catching doesn't matter and that a good outfielder is just as important as a good slip catcher, which is at best far fetched, especially considering how many matches have been won and lost in the cordon.

So I imagine when you have to choose between specialist catching and lower order batting, it's a no brainer for you.

Thankfully, at least going by this poll, it's not a sentiment yet shared by the community.

Question for you - Saha is undoubtedly a better keeper than Pant, even right now.
Do you drop Pant?
Jurel is also better, do you drop Pant?

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Jurel could be an ATG wicketkeeper batsman actually. Looked very good against England earlier this year.

 

[kyear2]

By that logic, you have to think older Batsman where better, much better. Similarly, you can't rate any spinner pre 70s at all. Can't have your cake and eat it too dear.

There was more spin bowled pre war, doesn't mean it was harder for the batsmen.

Walcott had to keep endless overs to our spin duo, doesn't mean that it was harder for the batsmen, nor do we rate the bowlers he kept to.

O'Reilly bowled tons of overs as well as in Australia, doesn't mean we should t rate him, but keeping to him was a unique challenge. Don't got your point.

 

[kyear2]

Question for you - Saha is undoubtedly a better keeper than Pant, even right now.
Do you drop Pant?
Jurel is also better, do you drop Pant?

Jurel is a noticably better keeper than Pant, yes I would definely give the gloves to him and let Pant bat in the middle order.

Win / win

 

[kyear2]

Jurel could be an ATG wicketkeeper batsman actually. Looked very good against England earlier this year.

Very good.

 

[ma1978]

Jurel is a noticably better keeper than Pant, yes I would definely give the gloves to him and let Pant bat in the middle order.

Win / win

this. Jurel looked better than any batting prospect we had too.

 

[ma1978]

Post BGT India XI

Jaiswal
Opener TBD
Gill
Pant
Khan
Jurel
The ageless Jadeja
The ageless Ashwin
Deep
Siraj
Bumrah

 

[capt_Luffy]

There was more spin bowled pre war, doesn't mean it was harder for the batsmen.

Walcott had to keep endless overs to our spin duo, doesn't mean that it was harder for the batsmen, nor do we rate the bowlers he kept to.

O'Reilly bowled tons of overs as well as in Australia, doesn't mean we should t rate him, but keeping to him was a unique challenge. Don't got your point.

Walcott hardly kept more to Ramadhin and Valentine than Saha did to Ashwin and Jadeja. Same for the likes of PJ, Rashid Latif, Dhoni, etc. The first line is only true for SENAW, has literally no implications in SC, unless you completely ignore it.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Post BGT India XI

Jaiswal
Opener TBD
Gill
Pant
Khan
Jurel
The ageless Jadeja
The ageless Ashwin
Deep
Siraj
Bumrah

Dropping Kohli is such a bad take honestly.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Kohli averages 56.21 over his last 9 tests

 

[ma1978]

Dropping Kohli is such a bad take honestly.

I wouldn’t drop. Just get the sense he moves on after this wtc cycle so maybe its post the wtc final

 

[Prince EWS]

He wasn't a good keeper at all in my memory. Stats for keepers aren't reliable and even footage for Zimbabwe tests is limited. If you're looking for hard evidence you aren't really going to get it.

Almost everyone on the Zimbabwe Cricket Forum hating his keeping and wishing they just picked a specialist gloveman to bat 8 or 9 from the start is as good evidence as any. They already had a good lower order with good bowling all rounders, and they often ended up picking a substandard specialist bat at 6 or 7 anyway.

The fans know.

Flower vs Knott as overall cricketers is close. If whoever you pick is going to be forced to keep then it's really not.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Almost everyone on the Zimbabwe Cricket Forum hating his keeping and wishing they just picked a specialist gloveman to bat 8 or 9 from the start is as good evidence as any. They already had a good lower order with good bowling all rounders, and they often ended up picking a substandard specialist bat at 6 or 7 anyway.

The fans know.

Flower vs Knott as overall cricketers is close. If whoever you pick is going to be forced to keep then it's really not.

I was actually looking at a CW thread while Flower retired recently (hence much fresher memory) and can't really find anyone dissing his keeping there. For Zimbabwe fans as well, given their batting line-up was already filled with specialist batsmen who can't bat, it makes sense for them to want their only World Class batter to take a lower workload and kick one of those for a better glovesman.

Andy Flower

:) Best wicket keeper batsman ever?

cricketweb.org

Also don't think Knott should be considered a better overall player by any means, but meh. Flower being a **** glovesman really seems prime revisionism with really not much there while he was active.

 

[kyear2]

I was actually looking at a CW thread while Flower retired recently (hence much fresher memory) and can't really find anyone dissing his keeping there. For Zimbabwe fans as well, given their batting line-up was already filled with specialist batsmen who can't bat, it makes sense for them to want their only World Class batter to take a lower workload and kick one of those for a better glovesman.

Andy Flower

:) Best wicket keeper batsman ever?

cricketweb.org

Also don't think Knott should be considered a better overall player by any means, but meh. Flower being a **** glovesman really seems prime revisionism with really not much there while he was active.

There were about 4 posts in that thread about his keeping. All but one said he wasn't as good as Gilchrist, and clearly so.
Most of the discussion that was even about him was as usual, around his batting... Your conclusion that he wasn't that bad as a gloveman is purely based on your desire to come to it. He wasn't a top class keeper, he wasn't even a really good one like Gilly. Anything below that and you're not in this conversation.

And as Subz always points out, there's always a softening on players as they approach retirement. Taking his over used example of Kallis, he was seen to be a better all rounder after his career than he was seen to be during, and yes there's plenty of posts showing that.

Your flippant dismissal of Knott as an all time great is a bit disrespectful but consistent with your views that undervalue specialists who aren't batsmen, and totally devalue catching and subsequently, great wicket-keeping.

Was England right to drop Russell to give Alec the gloves? Not nearly imo. Alec was better off as an opener and Jack the much better keeper.

Even in our discussions about Sangakkara being the keeper in an ATG Asia side, he's there purely out of necessity because there's no genuine world class top 6 all rounder available. With Sanga as the keeper you're getting less batting output from him, and a slightly lesser keeper than say Engineer or Prasanna J.
Even in my B ATG team, having a Knott isn't a problem as I have Imran covering him at 7 and he fits seamlessly in at 8.

Even at 7 in any team, a batting average of 32 isn't a liability and having one of the greatest glove men ever is a plus. And yes, I do acknowledge that the wicketkeeper has become an all rounder position, doesn't mean it has to skew that far in the favor of the batting side.

But thankfully, even with low numbers, this poll is quite definitive, as have most of the polls regarding McGrath being a shoo in for an AT XI despite not being able to bat.

What is equally off to me is that you don't consider a bowler or keeper if they can't produce with the bat to your standards, but have no issue with Sachin over Kallis even when there's no argument that Kallis would being so much more to a team than Sachin ever could with his catching and bowling which are equally essential to a team make up, and potentially more so.

But to sum up, I have two wicket keeper batsmen as ATGs and Knott is definitely one of them.