The 4th Greatest Wicket keeper Batsman?

[kyear2]

Over-simplifying a bit, but one might consider three tiers of wicket-keeper, excluding batting:

Tier 1: Top-class. Snaps up half-chances others wouldn't take. Reputation unanimous.
Tier 2: Competent and safe standing up or back, without doing much out of the ordinary.
Tier 3: Generally OK standing back but more fallible up at the stumps (or occasionally vice versa). Includes more competent ones who spent most of their career in the outfield.

Then three levels of batsmen among keepers:

Tier 1: Test-level batsman.
Tier 2: All-rounder level batsman.
Tier 3: Lower-order level batsman.

That gives nine combinations. Who fits into which category won't find universal agreement, but some possible examples below. Wicket-keeping tier shown first.

1 + 1: Probably doesn't exist.
1 + 2: Knott
1 + 3: Out of fashion with more uniform pitches and less spin. Oldfield, Evans, Wasim Bari.

2 + 1: Gilchrist
2 + 2: Ames, Waite, Watling
2 + 3: Again out of fashion. Duckworth.

3 + 1: Flower, Pant, de Villiers
3 + 2: Jim Parks, Geraint Jones
3 + 3: Out of fashion. Ordinary keeper and lower-order bat.

I see you have Flower and A.B. as 3 + 1, but would you also classify Sanga and Walcott there as well?

They were both better keepers than the others mentioned.

 

[kyear2]

Can put Akmal in the 3+3 category

W head many of those as well.

Junior Murray, Courtney Brown

 

[Thala_0710]

I see you have Flower and A.B. as 3 + 1, but would you also classify Sanga and Walcott there as well?

They were both better keepers than the others mentioned.

Sanga's more 2+1 than 3+1 I think. Not sure about Walcott but probably 2+1 as well

 

[kyear2]

Sanga's more 2+1 than 3+1 I think. Not sure about Walcott but probably 2+1 as well

Would be my thoughts as well, waiting for the great man's perspective though.

 

[Coronis]

How bout de Kock? More Watling or Pant?

 

[Thala_0710]

How bout de Kock? More Watling or Pant?

Watling

 

[kyear2]

Watling

Was de Kock really proven enough vs quality spin?

 

[kyear2]

My question is Engineer, if he was good enough to be in the 1 + 2 category.

 

[sayon basak]

.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I think many players like Waite, Engineer etc probably are on the line between tiers 1 and 2 as keepers, though definitely don't know enough.

 

[kyear2]

Would imagine the reason there aren't many test class or any ATG batsmen who are great keepers is that once you're a test class batsman you wouldn't require the gloves to make the team and no one wants that extra responsibility.

 

[Thala_0710]

Was de Kock really proven enough vs quality spin?

Don't think so in red ball but in white ball cricket he kept quite well to spinners imo, and can say this with quite some certainity after having seen him keep for years in India

 

[kyear2]

I think many players like Waite, Engineer etc probably are on the line between tiers 1 and 2 as keepers, though definitely don't know enough.

If you really had to choose between Healy and Flower as your keeper, you're really going Flower?

 

[kyear2]

Don't think so in red ball but in white ball cricket he kept quite well to spinners imo, and can say this with quite some certainity after having seen him keep for years in India

.not to go off on a tangent, but isn't more white ball spin, flatter, has less variety and overall less challenging?

 

[capt_Luffy]

If you really had to choose between Healy and Flower as your keeper, you're really going Flower?

Without a shadow of a doubt, most definitely without thinking.

 

[Thala_0710]

Without a shadow of a doubt, most definitely without thinking.

As a wkb right and not pure wk I assume?

 

[Thala_0710]

.not to go off on a tangent, but isn't more white ball spin, flatter, has less variety and overall less challenging?

Definitely is but by seeing just how well he kept, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have much troubles in red ball cricket too. Not saying he's a Saha or Jayawardene level keeper but Watling definitely more than Pant

 

[kyear2]

Without a shadow of a doubt, most definitely without thinking.

Of all the topics we disagree won, think this is the one that mystifies me the most.

His primary job to to keep wicket. He was basically Junior Murray with the gloves, that's a liability, lost opportunities and byes.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Of all the topics we disagree won, think this is the one that mystifies me the most.

His primary job to to keep wicket. He was basically Junior Murray with the gloves, that's a liability, lost opportunities and byes.

And I don't have evidence to term liability, on the contrary his keeping seems to be competent. Not taking Kumble's word, but that comparison definitely suggests competency, as does the fact that Zimbabwe didn't just field a specialist keeper until Taibu rolled by (who could had made his way as a batsman as well). So yeah, definitely not taking Healy ahead of him.

 

[Thala_0710]

And I don't have evidence to term liability, on the contrary his keeping seems to be competent. Not taking Kumble's word, but that comparison definitely suggests competency, as does the fact that Zimbabwe didn't just field a specialist keeper until Taibu rolled by (who could had made his way as a batsman as well). So yeah, definitely not taking Healy ahead of him.

This might depend team to team though. A Zimbabwe would definitely opt over Flower for Healy because they need that batting that much. Prime Australia would prefer Healy taking every edge possible of Warne, McGrath and Gillespie rather than the extra batting help