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New Zealand doom and gloom thread

wellAlbidarned

International Coach
It's almost the opposite. He was a regular in the team in the early stages of McCullum's captaincy, but missed more tests than he played in the last 12 months before McCullum's retirement. He was selected for a total of 1/8 tests against England and Australia from 2015-2016. He missed the game immediately before McCullum's last test even.
Fair point. I don't think you can argue that Baz wasn't one of the primary drivers of Wagnerball though. Williamson took that idea and gave it a more consistent run since it enabled him to avoid having to captain spinners.
 

SteveNZ

Cricketer Of The Year
Fair point. I don't think you can argue that Baz wasn't one of the primary drivers of Wagnerball though. Williamson took that idea and gave it a more consistent run since it enabled him to avoid having to captain spinners.
I'm not being adversarial because I agree with a lot you've said, but I can absolutely see the argument. Wags didn't actually, on reflection, seem to get a charmed run under Baz and Hesson - interesting given his aggressive approach, and the fact he was an Otago person, too. I can't remember that period as I was overseas, but it seems as if Wags was far from an automatic selection, and that there was a level of distrust that his methods would work against strong sides like Australia.

But what I would say to what you're talking about, is that anything that worked under Kane was a progression from what was going on under Baz/Hesson. Kane is not a transformative leader. He would, and did, take the best parts of what was going well and developing under Baz, who was still in the side and still influential, and carried on with it. Kane's success needed to (for me) to build on what came before him. I believe he would not have worked coming in from Galle 2012, or earlier, and the mess that came about with that. Kane is not a natural leader of men, but he is intelligent enough to know that changing little things here and there, and setting a standard through preparation and performance was enough to take the side forward from 2015. Hesson was also obviously involved until 2018.

It all worked well enough until 2022 or so, when Gary Stead simply putting the cones out wasn't enough, senior players started to move on or become a divisive influence - or need to be moved on - and he didn't have the nous or power to pull it off.
 

_Ed_

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I'm glad this thread has had a pre-emptive dig ahead of the India tour. I'm honestly expecting pummellings on the scale of the Inzamam 300 in that ill-fated Pakistan tour.

I know we've taken less talented teams to India, but they've still managed to provide moments of glorious joy like Chris Martin inexplicably running through their top order and Tim McIntosh grinding out a wonderfully dull century. Obviously Ajaz too.

I'm usually pretty optimistic (and somehow remain that way with the White Ferns, despite almost-universal disappointment), but Gary Stead seems to have chiselled the optimism out of me with this team.
This didn't age well. Never been happier to be wrong.
 

HeathDavisSpeed

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
This didn't age well. Never been happier to be wrong.
One swallow does not a summer make. The stuff about Stead, still applies until more evidence is shown that poor performances won't be tolerated. Even in this test there were some pretty poor fielding displays which worse NZ teams of past vintage wouldn't have suffered from. Great displays from Ravindra, O'Rourke and Henry and Conway and Young contributed excellently too.
 

SteveNZ

Cricketer Of The Year
Exactly Steve. On the money as ever. A win despite Stead, one might think.
It doesn't fill me with pride, me old mate, to be so demeaning of Stead. Good luck to him but what happened this week owes to great skill, not tactic and ideal planning.

That can change, however,in the next two tests. I'd love to praise what happens next
 

HeathDavisSpeed

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
It doesn't fill me with pride, me old mate, to be so demeaning of Stead. Good luck to him but what happened this week owes to great skill, not tactic and ideal planning.

That can change, however,in the next two tests. I'd love to praise what happens next
It would be joyous to be able to revel in a victory without any caveats. In fact, **** it, I'm ****ing off to have a couple of celebratory beers, download some dodgy highlights and bask in it and not let the old cynicism get the better of me for once.
 

SteveNZ

Cricketer Of The Year
The uncomfortable thing for us, is that Gary Stead has these accomplishments on his CV:

Inaugural WTC winners
Tied World Cup final 2019
T20 World final in 2021
Historic series win in India, first team for 26 years to even win a single test there

That's a significant amount of success. But he also has this:

Lost 5 Tests out of 5 to Australia, as well as six out of six ODIs. Has won 4 out of 10 T20s.
Lost Test at home to Bangladesh for the first time
Piss poor T20 World competition in 2024
Overseen regression in a number of senior players, and hopeless selection policies
Once said 'we can't win every game and shouldn't expect to'

I'm sure there's more
 

thundaboult

International Debutant
The uncomfortable thing for us, is that Gary Stead has these accomplishments on his CV:

Inaugural WTC winners
Tied World Cup final 2019
T20 World final in 2021
Historic series win in India, first team for 26 years to even win a single test there

That's a significant amount of success. But he also has this:

Lost 5 Tests out of 5 to Australia, as well as six out of six ODIs. Has won 4 out of 10 T20s.
Lost Test at home to Bangladesh for the first time
Piss poor T20 World competition in 2024
Overseen regression in a number of senior players, and hopeless selection policies
Once said 'we can't win every game and shouldn't expect to'

I'm sure there's more
for the accomplishments he also has the uae test series win against pak in 18, and that was against a strong pak side who had made uae their red ball fortress....that might have even been in his very first series in charge.....

still thinking its the exceptional talent of our superstar players and stead being a passenger...although in times like this its fair to ask that maybe he does add something? maybe he gives the most inspiring pep talks for a senior citizen coach, we don't know
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
I think you guys are overthinking this. I dunno if its just Stead but the impression I get as an overseas guy and a fan of another team, is he is a guy who can get his side squeeze any little advantage they get and mostly use any slip ups by the opposition but when you need to make the great play to win a game, is often found lacking. Ruthless and efficient, but not quite mindblowing.

I dont know enough of the NZ domestic scene to relatively compare the talents coming through in the various eras but if you guys think this era has been your strongest and greatest then definitely I would say he has underachieved inspite of the significant achievements. For all the nice words I can think and say for you guys, everyone knows the WTC win is as much down to scheduling luck as anything else. The two finals you lost were both games you should have perhaps won. The test series wins against Pak in UAE and Ind in Ind are definitely amazing but again, it seems to me both had a lots to do with taking advantage of a slipping up opponent than a KO blow delivered by this side.

Conversely though, if you did find a coach who will take your team in that direction, you will have to prepare to lose games you would not have thought you would lose in Stead's era. But yeah, if the talent coming through is really that good, then defiinitely another coach who is willing to treat them as a team of match-winners maybe the way to go in the future, for all of Stead's achievements as of now. Every coach and management have their sell-by dates, even the best of them.
 

thundaboult

International Debutant
I think you guys are overthinking this. I dunno if its just Stead but the impression I get as an overseas guy and a fan of another team, is he is a guy who can get his side squeeze any little advantage they get and mostly use any slip ups by the opposition but when you need to make the great play to win a game, is often found lacking. Ruthless and efficient, but not quite mindblowing.

I dont know enough of the NZ domestic scene to relatively compare the talents coming through in the various eras but if you guys think this era has been your strongest and greatest then definitely I would say he has underachieved inspite of the significant achievements. For all the nice words I can think and say for you guys, everyone knows the WTC win is as much down to scheduling luck as anything else. The two finals you lost were both games you should have perhaps won. The test series wins against Pak in UAE and Ind in Ind are definitely amazing but again, it seems to me both had a lots to do with taking advantage of a slipping up opponent than a KO blow delivered by this side.

Conversely though, if you did find a coach who will take your team in that direction, you will have to prepare to lose games you would not have thought you would lose in Stead's era. But yeah, if the talent coming through is really that good, then defiinitely another coach who is willing to treat them as a team of match-winners maybe the way to go in the future, for all of Stead's achievements as of now. Every coach and management have their sell-by dates, even the best of them.
Yes. I do believe we have underachieved despite the consistent world class talent being produced in the last 10 years and currently. There should already be a t20 world cup and an odi world cup in this nz team's locker. No doubt they have the ability.

The underdog tag is a thing of the past.
 

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