Team of all rounders v specialists

[kyear2]

You also have Gilchrist as a wk

He was a very good keeper and the difference between him and a specialist is massive because of his batting

Yes, Gilly, Sobers are the keys to the batting.

 

[kyear2]

For Grace, I didn't consider him here. As a general rule I don't go there as the variance in conditions, quality, professionalism, rules etc is too too high for me to make any sort of good judgement on players of that era. As you say it is possible that Grace is the best bar Bradman but it is also possible I'll that he isn't simply anywhere near the ATGs. The variance is too high for me to say anything

We really are kindred spirits, .

Sure we'll find something eventually but instep rhus far.

Can't include Grace in these conversations. Not playing the same sport, him and Barnes just have no basis for consideration.

 

[kyear2]

I mean, I don't think more than 5 and at most 6 bowling options makes much difference, so no need for Kallis as I already have Sobers and Grace. And really bowling, I do have both Imran and Hadlee, as I think the difference between them and McGrath isn't bigger than their batting difference.

Not to say Imran doesn't deserve a place in an AT squad, he undeniably will always be in contention. But will eternally disagree with the argument as phrased.

It's about intangibles as much as averages.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Bloody hell.
Name for me the bowlers of the quality of Steyn, Marshall, Ambrose or McGrath that Grace faced. Please and thanks.

Was a different game in an archaic time. And while he deserves full credit as one of the early giants of the game and as such to be mentioned along with Bradman and Sobers from that perspective... He doesn't belong in these conversations.

Sydney Barnes. Also, On MUCH MUCH MUCH worse pitches he also played Fred "The Demon" Spofforth, Charlie "The Terror" Turner, George Lohmann, Tom Richardson, Bill Lockwood, John J Ferris, Alfred Shaw, Fred Morley, Johnny Briggs, Bobby Peel, Ted Peate, Joey Palmer and Hugh Trumble; all of them boosting better averages than them.
As I said, I don't think Sobers will do great on magically getting transported to modern day, or Lillee can be expected to end up in Australia squad. The sport has evolved and so has fitness levels, etc. It's ever evolving. So I just find it better to expect them to perform like they did, with respect to conditions.

 

[kyear2]

Sydney Barnes. Also, On MUCH MUCH MUCH worse pitches he also played Fred "The Demon" Spofforth, Charlie "The Terror" Turner, George Lohmann, Tom Richardson, Bill Lockwood, John J Ferris, Alfred Shaw, Fred Morley, Johnny Briggs, Bobby Peel, Ted Peate, Joey Palmer and Hugh Trumble; all of them boosting better averages than them.
As I said, I don't think Sobers will do great on magically getting transported to modern day, or Lillee can be expected to end up in Australia squad. The sport has evolved and so has fitness levels, etc. It's ever evolving. So I just find it better to expect them to perform like they did, with respect to conditions.

You don't think Lillee could walk into the current Australian squad?

And you didn't answer the primary question.

None of those guys makes a top 20 list, far less we have no idea what they threw down.

Barnes and Grace belongs in an abstract list, but can't be compared to modern players.

Bradman looked like a batsman, Hammond doesn't make my absolute top tier not because of his era, but because of how he did against pace.

Grace and Barnes aren't comparable, not that we would know if they were, because we never saw them.

 

[capt_Luffy]

You don't think Lillee could walk into the current Australian squad?

And you didn't answer the primary question.

None of those guys makes a top 20 list, far less we have no idea what they threw down.

Barnes and Grace belongs in an abstract list, but can't be compared to modern players.

Bradman looked like a batsman, Hammond doesn't make my absolute top tier not because of his era, but because of how he did against pace.

Grace and Barnes aren't comparable, not that we would know if they were, because we never saw them.

Without changing his game and updating with time, a time traveling Lillee won't.

Barnes does. Every single list, he made so. And have you looked at their averages and wondered why most doesn't? Because the pitches were nightmare for batting.

 

[kyear2]

Without changing his game and updating with time, a time traveling Lillee won't.

Barnes does. Every single list, he made so. And have you looked at their averages and wondered why most doesn't? Because the pitches were nightmare for batting.

D.K Lillee lacks which skills exactly to.prevent him from getting in such a team?

Fitness? He could bowl all day

Technique? Have you wanted him?

Level of competition? That one's not even serous.

Please tell me exactly where.

 

[capt_Luffy]

D.K Lillee lacks which skills exactly to.prevent him from getting in such a team?

Fitness? He could bowl all day

Technique? Have you wanted him?

Level of competition? That one's not even serous.

Please tell me exactly where.

No, I didn't.

The level of fitness and techniques have changed, magnificently. Bowling to batsmen without helmets would hardly get him much far nowadays. Can't just see him just popping up and out bowling Cummins and Bumrah.

 

[Bolo.]

Yeah, Kallis is really really good obviously. Top 5 cricketers of all time probably.
It's just that once a very famous graphic was shown for Kallis where his batting stats were similar to Sachin and bowling stats similar to Zaheer. That's the issue for me. Ppl tend to look at just base avg, wkts, avg etc and tend to slightly overrate him and think he is Sachin+Zak in 1 cricketer. He's still an ATG cricketer and AR but he's just not that

I think you are confusing other sites with CW. Reddit maybe? His rating as an AR is crazy high elsewhere, but that doesn't happen here. The vast majority of the respect on CW (from those that rate him) comes from his batting. You are fighting strawmen on this site.*

He's obviously not Zak with the ball, but you are also swinging way too hard in the other direction. You asked how much impact an almost average innings of 1/32 from him would have in another thread. I responded to that one, but Kallis wasn't relevant, so here is my response to what I ignored:

His impact as a bowler was:

1. A decent amount if those are actually his figures. Bowler rotation is extremely valuable, especially when you don't have a good spinner.
2. That was his average, not his match figures. When needed, he bowled more. When not, less.
3. His value as a bowler can be assessed by who replaced him when he was out injured. Other than one match, at the very end of his career** (when he was shot as a bowler, understandably), every time he was out injured he got replaced by either a (terrible) specialist bowler, or a (terrible) bits and pieces player. He's obviously a thousand times better as a bat, but his team feeling the need to replace his bowling should give some perspective on the value his bowling provided, irrespective of how many overs he was bowling.

Oddly enough, after all all of this, I also rate him as probably a top 5 cricketer.


*and me.
**this century. I don't know about the 90s. I don't think he ever got injured in the 90s, and this should be irrelevant, but want to give facts that I'm completely sure of.

 

[reyrey]

Consistency wasn't their forte.

They don't need to be consistent. If you've got 5 all rounders (vs none) batting from 7 to 11 and all are capable of scoring big runs on their day, then the more you have the higher the chances of someone getting a big score.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

We really are kindred spirits, .

Sure we'll find something eventually but instep rhus far.

Can't include Grace in these conversations. Not playing the same sport, him and Barnes just have no basis for consideration.

MODS

Multi alert!

 

[Bolo.]

They don't need to be consistent. If you've got 5 all rounders (vs none) batting from 7 to 11 and all are capable of scoring big runs on their day, then the more you have the higher the chance of one of them actually succeeding.

A number of these guys did not end up scoring big runs in real life. Get set, and run out of partners, cos you are batting low. I guess you suck as a bat cos you didn't score enough hundreds, despite your expected score on dismisal being way higher than when not set.

Only one guy can run out of partners though. It bodes well for the entire tail.