Team of all rounders v specialists

[social]

Kallis is ridiculously underrated by some

Like having Tendulkar + nearly 300 test wickets + great catching

 

[capt_Luffy]

There is no way the last 5 are making 20 runs each against an ATG bowling line up

You don't think Imran, Procter, Hadlee, Rhodes and Ashwin can score 100 runs between them?? Then I think you seriously are underestimating their batting.

 

[social]

There is no way the last 5 are making 20 runs each against an ATG bowling line up

The all rounders have an atg bowling lineup and they’re up against genuine tailenders

 

[Thala_0710]

The all rounders have an atg bowling lineup and they’re up against genuine tailenders

Not saying that the specialists bowling line up would contribute much, but their bowling wouldn't need to

 

[capt_Luffy]

Not saying that the specialists bowling line up would contribute much, but their bowling wouldn't need to

Other question, do you think the contribution of the specialists Top 6 would be enough large to override the contributions by those 5?? Like, on the lower side, I would atleast expect them to contribute 75 runs between themselves. As I said, the only factor in favour of specialists is Don.

 

[social]

Not saying that the specialists bowling line up would contribute much, but their bowling wouldn't need to

Bradman is the one great outlier in sports

For Lara, I give you Sobers + bowling and fielding

etc etc

 

[Thala_0710]

Kallis is ridiculously underrated by some

Like having Tendulkar + nearly 300 test wickets + great catching

Kallis is obviously an ATG test player, top 3 all rounders of all time easily. But with due respect its not like having a batsman like Tendulkar and a bowler of the quality of 300 test wickets. Tendulkar is a tier above him in terms of batting and as for the bowling, Kallis is not near the quality other bowlers who have reached 300 wkts are. Kallis was a good 5th and at times 4th bowling option with minimal workload coz SA needed him more for his batting. Of all the bowlers with 250+ test wkts, everybody has a WPM of 3+wkts per match bar Kallis (and Ishant who has 2.97). Kallis meanwhile has a WPM of 1.75 so not nearly the impact/workload of anyone else. Factor in that he bowled at home in the most pace friendly conditions of SA, he clearly falls short of the bowlers. As I said he is still a good 4-5th bowling option but not what ppl think when they see 292 wkts on the resume

 

[Thala_0710]

Other question, do you think the contribution of the specialists Top 6 would be enough large to override the contributions by those 5?? Like, on the lower side, I would atleast expect them to contribute 75 runs between themselves. As I said, the only factor in favour of specialists is Don.

I do think so yeah. Hobbs, Hutton, Bradman, Richards, Tendulkar and Lara are all tier 1 batsmen for me and from the AR's only Sobers and probably Hammond can sit alongside them on the same tier. If one combines the rest 4 there is a massive gap in batting quality which I don't think can be made up by the 5 you mentioned. They could contribute a handy 60-75 something but I don't think it covers the gap

 

[social]

Kallis is obviously an ATG test player, top 3 all rounders of all time easily. But with due respect its not like having a batsman like Tendulkar and a bowler of the quality of 300 test wickets. Tendulkar is a tier above him in terms of batting and as for the bowling, Kallis is not near the quality other bowlers who have reached 300 wkts are. Kallis was a good 5th and at times 4th bowling option with minimal workload coz SA needed him more for his batting. Of all the bowlers with 250+ test wkts, everybody has a WPM of 3+wkts per match bar Kallis (and Ishant who has 2.97). Kallis meanwhile has a WPM of 1.75 so not nearly the impact/workload of anyone else. Factor in that he bowled at home in the most pace friendly conditions of SA, he clearly falls short of the bowlers. As I said he is still a good 4-5th bowling option but not what ppl think when they see 292 wkts on the resume

Kallis averaged more with the bat than Tendy who also averaged “only” 46 in SA

Both great players but Kallis every time

The difference is Bradman and not Sachin v Kallis

 

[capt_Luffy]

I do think so yeah. Hobbs, Hutton, Bradman, Richards, Tendulkar and Lara are all tier 1 batsmen for me and from the AR's only Sobers and probably Hammond can sit alongside them on the same tier. If one combines the rest 4 there is a massive gap in batting quality which I don't think can be made up by the 5 you mentioned. They could contribute a handy 60-75 something but I don't think it covers the gap

I don't think the difference between them and Grace Kallis, ABD and Simpson is so large, at all. Like ofcourse Lara is better than Kallis as a batsman, but not by any big margin in practicality IMHO, and Grace is arguably better than anyone but Bradman. Bradman is a cheat code though.

 

[Thala_0710]

Kallis averaged more with the bat than Tendy who also averaged 46 in SA

Both great players but Kallis every time

The difference is Bradman and not Sachin v Kallis

My point was that Kallis is not Tendulkar+a great bowler mixed in 1. As a player you can have Kallis over Tendulkar, it's fine. But not a huge gap and ppl could go either way. Remeber there was a poll on this forum for that particular match up as cricketers which was quite close. For the avg, you can't compare them with their avgs in SA, Tendulkar played Donald, Steyn, Pollock etc in SA everytime he went there, Kallis fixed a mix of quality and poor attacks there and also played much much more than Sachin in SA, it isn't as a simple comparison as stating their avgs.

 

[social]

I don't think the difference between them and Grace Kallis, ABD and Simpson is so large, at all. Like ofcourse Lara is better than Kallis as a batsman, but not by any big margin in practicality IMHO, and Grace is arguably better than anyone but Bradman. Bradman is a cheat code though.

You also have Gilchrist as a wk

He was a very good keeper and the difference between him and a specialist is massive because of his batting

 

[Thala_0710]

I don't think the difference between them and Grace Kallis, ABD and Simpson is so large, at all. Like ofcourse Lara is better than Kallis as a batsman, but not by any big margin in practicality IMHO, and Grace is arguably better than anyone but Bradman. Bradman is a cheat code though.

For Grace, I didn't consider him here. As a general rule I don't go there as the variance in conditions, quality, professionalism, rules etc is too too high for me to make any sort of good judgement on players of that era. As you say it is possible that Grace is the best bar Bradman but it is also possible I'll that he isn't simply anywhere near the ATGs. The variance is too high for me to say anything

 

[Thala_0710]

You also have Gilchrist as a wk

He was a very good keeper and the difference between him and a specialist is massive because of his batting

I agree with that

 

[Thala_0710]

Another point though, the one's saying that the AR team wins or would be better without Bradman, surely then must agree that while making ATG Xis we ought to select more than the 1-2 AR's in them than we usually do?

 

[social]

For Grace, I didn't consider him here. As a general rule I don't go there as the variance in conditions, quality, professionalism, rules etc is too too high for me to make any sort of good judgement on players of that era. As you say it is possible that Grace is the best bar Bradman but it is also possible I'll that he isn't simply anywhere near the ATGs. The variance is too high for me to say anything

The biggest differences between when I played & today are the fielding, fitness and the professionalism (e.g. everyone can hold a bat now)

Throw in another 100 years and it’s a different game

 

[capt_Luffy]

Another point though, the one's saying that the AR team wins or would be better without Bradman, surely then must agree that while making ATG Xis we ought to select more than the 1-2 AR's in them than we usually do?

I mean, I don't think more than 5 and at most 6 bowling options makes much difference, so no need for Kallis as I already have Sobers and Grace. And really bowling, I do have both Imran and Hadlee, as I think the difference between them and McGrath isn't bigger than their batting difference.

 

[Thala_0710]

The biggest differences between when I played & today are the fielding, fitness and the professionalism (e.g. everyone can hold a bat now)

Throw in another 100 years and it’s a different game

Maybe but I don't think so. If you plot a quality/professionalism/developement vs time graph in cricket it would be a linear/fast increase in the beginning which would largely flatten out after a given interval (something like Log(x) for the math nerds here). So there would be increase, but I don't it would be nearly of the order of the first 100 yrs

 

[Thala_0710]

I mean, I don't think more than 5 and at most 6 bowling options makes much difference, so no need for Kallis as I already have Sobers and Grace. And really bowling, I do have both Imran and Hadlee, as I think the difference between them and McGrath isn't bigger than their batting difference.

Not just the world all time xi, I meant any all time Xi of any sort, like the country Xis or a specific era Xi etc

 

[capt_Luffy]

Not just the world all time xi, I meant any all time Xi of any sort, like the country Xis or a specific era Xi etc

I think there are only a handful of all-rounders of the quality who can match the Top tier specialists in primary enough that the secondary boost is big enough to surpass the primary.