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Jacques Kallis vs Ricky Ponting

Who is the greater test batsman?

  • Total voters
    41
ankitj

ankitj

Hall of Fame Member
kyear2 said:
I have him on the periphery of the top 10, probably 13 or so.

But don't think many who watched both their careers play out, came away thinking that Kallis was the better of the two.
Click to expand...
Did you notice that Kallis has votes in this poll and I don't think anyone is sub-teen in age
 
P

PlayerComparisons

International Vice-Captain
Tendulkar
Viv
Lara
Smith
Gavaskar
Chappell
Kallis
Sangakkara
Ponting
Border
Waugh
Dravid
Miandad

That would be my top 13 atm (maybe a different order tho). Younis, Root, De Villiers, and Kohli all pretty good candidates for #14.
 
Johan

Johan

State Vice-Captain
withhold judgement on current players unless you're rating them as if their career ended this morning
 
capt_Luffy

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
My top 50 of the modern Era:

  1. Sachin Tendulkar
  2. Brian Lara
  3. Steve Smith
  4. Viv Richards
  5. Sunil Gavaskar
  6. Allan Border
  7. Jacques Kallis
  8. Steve Waugh
  9. Kumar Sangakkara
  10. Greg Chappell
  11. Ricky Ponting
  12. Rahul Dravid
  13. Joe Root
  14. Javed Miandad
  15. A B de Villiers
  16. Virat Kohli
  17. Younis Khan
  18. Kane Williamson
  19. Andy Flower
  20. Geoff Boycott
  21. Martin Crowe
  22. Clive Lloyd
  23. Hashim Amla
  24. Gordon Greenidge
  25. Shivnarine Chanderpaul
  26. Graeme Smith
  27. Matthew Hayden
  28. Virendra Sehwag
  29. Inzamam-ul-Haq
  30. Alaistar Cook
  31. Adam Gilchrist
  32. Kevin Pietersen
  33. VVS Laxman
  34. Michael Clarke
  35. Mahela Jayawardene
  36. Graham Gooch
  37. David Gower
  38. Mohammad Yousuf
  39. Doug Walters
  40. Aravinda de Silva
  41. Garry Kirsten
  42. Michael Hussey
  43. Graham Thorpe
  44. Cheteshwar Pujara
  45. David Boon
  46. Ian Chappell
  47. Glenn Turner
  48. Ross Taylor
  49. Alvin Kallicharran
  50. Richie Richardson
 
kyear2

kyear2

International Coach
Red_Ink_Squid said:
Part of this is an issue of perception (Bolo has discussed this a few times). Players who excel early and get the tag of "great" when young usually keep that tag throughout their careers even when/if they decline. Whereas players who start slow and become great gradually rarely get the same level of acclaim. For a big chunk of their respective careers Ponting was a level ahead of Kallis, and once that perception is ingrained, it's hard to shift, even though the latter stage of their careers favours Kallis heavily. Plus aggressive batsmen are also prone to be overrated in popular consciousness relative to defensive batsmen (which isn't to say that it isn't a plus to be more attacking).

Similar to how Peter May and Ken Barrington were two England players less than a year apart in age. Few who watched both their careers play out came away thinking that Barrington was the better of the two. May was a prodigy and was *way* ahead of Barrington early in their careers. But he faded relatively early whereas Barrington was great into his late 30s. And May was seen as an attractive stroke maker while Barrington was seen as dour. With hindsight most people nowadays rate Barrington higher because ultimately he achieved more, but that wasn't the popular view of their contemporaries.
Click to expand...
Agree with most of what you're saying.

It's also worth repeating that it's not a gulf between the two, I have one 13th and the other one literally behind in 14th.

I believe that Ponting's impact as a batsman for his team was greater. He set the tone and won them matches. He made life easier for the guys who came after, and his output in the peak of his career was absolutely insane.

Those are my reasons for placing him, ever so slightly ahead.
 
kyear2

kyear2

International Coach
ankitj said:
Did you notice that Kallis has votes in this poll and I don't think anyone is sub-teen in age
Click to expand...
1. Quite a few teenagers and youngsters around

2. Specifically said not many, didn't say no one.

Coronis and Pews and on the anti s/r brigade and don't think Luffy saw him in his prime.
 
T

Thala_0710

State 12th Man
capt_Luffy said:
My top 50 of the modern Era:

  1. Sachin Tendulkar
  2. Brian Lara
  3. Steve Smith
  4. Viv Richards
  5. Sunil Gavaskar
  6. Allan Border
  7. Jacques Kallis
  8. Steve Waugh
  9. Kumar Sangakkara
  10. Greg Chappell
  11. Ricky Ponting
  12. Rahul Dravid
  13. Joe Root
  14. Javed Miandad
  15. A B de Villiers
  16. Virat Kohli
  17. Younis Khan
  18. Kane Williamson
  19. Andy Flower
  20. Geoff Boycott
  21. Martin Crowe
  22. Clive Lloyd
  23. Hashim Amla
  24. Gordon Greenidge
  25. Shivnarine Chanderpaul
  26. Graeme Smith
  27. Matthew Hayden
  28. Virendra Sehwag
  29. Inzamam-ul-Haq
  30. Alaistar Cook
  31. Adam Gilchrist
  32. Kevin Pietersen
  33. VVS Laxman
  34. Michael Clarke
  35. Mahela Jayawardene
  36. Graham Gooch
  37. David Gower
  38. Mohammad Yousuf
  39. Doug Walters
  40. Aravinda de Silva
  41. Garry Kirsten
  42. Michael Hussey
  43. Graham Thorpe
  44. Cheteshwar Pujara
  45. David Boon
  46. Ian Chappell
  47. Glenn Turner
  48. Ross Taylor
  49. Alvin Kallicharran
  50. Richie Richardson
Click to expand...
I thought you had Gavaskar over Richards?
 
Coronis

Coronis

International Coach
Red_Ink_Squid said:
Part of this is an issue of perception (Bolo has discussed this a few times). Players who excel early and get the tag of "great" when young usually keep that tag throughout their careers even when/if they decline. Whereas players who start slow and become great gradually rarely get the same level of acclaim. For a big chunk of their respective careers Ponting was a level ahead of Kallis, and once that perception is ingrained, it's hard to shift, even though the latter stage of their careers favours Kallis heavily. Plus aggressive batsmen are also prone to be overrated in popular consciousness relative to defensive batsmen (which isn't to say that it isn't a plus to be more attacking).

Similar to how Peter May and Ken Barrington were two England players less than a year apart in age. Few who watched both their careers play out came away thinking that Barrington was the better of the two. May was a prodigy and was *way* ahead of Barrington early in their careers. But he faded relatively early whereas Barrington was great into his late 30s. And May was seen as an attractive stroke maker while Barrington was seen as dour. With hindsight most people nowadays rate Barrington higher because ultimately he achieved more, but that wasn't the popular view of their contemporaries.
Click to expand...
I think re: May as well, he was dominant at home, whilst Barrington was merely great at home and dominant away. Funny thing is they both scored at a very similar rate.

kyear2 said:
I have him on the periphery of the top 10, probably 13 or so.

But don't think many who watched both their careers play out, came away thinking that Kallis was the better of the two.
Click to expand...
I did.
 
B

Bolo.

International Captain
kyear2 said:
Agree with most of what you're saying.

It's also worth repeating that it's not a gulf between the two, I have one 13th and the other one literally behind in 14th.

I believe that Ponting's impact as a batsman for his team was greater. He set the tone and won them matches. He made life easier for the guys who came after, and his output in the peak of his career was absolutely insane.

Those are my reasons for placing him, ever so slightly ahead.
Click to expand...
The opposite of this, I reckon.

A more aggressive bat is more likely to make life easier for the person they are batting with, while a slower one will make life easier for the ones who follow.

It's a part of why I think Cook had a better SR than Sehwag, but Gilchrist had a better SR than Chanderpaul.

As a very vague general rule for specialists that ignores match situations, if your team is expecting to score more runs after you get out than while you are batting, slower is better and vice versa. Faster is generally better from lower middle bats, in the later parts of long innings, when you are getting close to a decleration/running out of partners etc. And vice versa.
 
kyear2

kyear2

International Coach
Coronis said:
I think re: May as well, he was dominant at home, whilst Barrington was merely great at home and dominant away. Funny thing is they both scored at a very similar rate.



I did.
Click to expand...
Yes, you're one of the aforementioned gang of 4 that discredits the benefits of accelerated scoring.
 
Coronis

Coronis

International Coach
kyear2 said:
Yes, you're one of the aforementioned gang of 4 that discredits the benefits of accelerated scoring.
Click to expand...
lol. Never have.

I just credit equally the benefits of slower scoring. I guess my lack of bias could be frustrating.
 
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