Better test bat: Dravid vs Sangakkara

[reyrey]

The two nations whom Sanga played most tests against were England and Pakistan.

vs England
22 Tests, 1568 runs @ 40.20, 3 tons

vs Pak
23 Tests, 2911 runs @ 74.64, 10 tons

vs Australia
11 Tests, 878 runs @ 43.90, 1 ton

Every player of that era was judged against Australia and Mr Sanga had just ONE century against Aus. That's not an insignificant fact.

Sanga stats when not keeping wicket

vs England averages 47.33

vs Aus 63.66

 

[shortpitched713]

So very often when Pakistan-India or Pakistan-Sri Lanka played each other in that period, they played on insane highways where it didn't matter who the bowlers were. You'd see ridiculous scores with bowlers usually reduced to cannon fodder, batters often having to get themselves out. Pakistan had the worst pitches, followed by likes of Colombo SSC. Sehwag another beneficiary of highway tracks vs Pakistan, against whom he averages 91. He'd been Bradman if only Pakistan existed and they kept playing on those kind of tracks. Bowling quality rendered meaningless. Sadly India pakistan matches didn't happen so often, unlike Pak-SL.

That number only matters if you look at the averages wholesale without context, instead of the actual performances.

Sehwag's performances against Pakistan were absolutely monumental, against a quality side, and India did win matches where he went off. Same with Sanga. 0-0 was not a common series result, regardless of how meaningless you think the flat pitches of these times made the contests. Occasionally dull and ruined, yes. Meaningless, no.

 

[centurymaker]

Sanga stats when not keeping wicket

vs England averages 47.33

vs Aus 63.66

These are basically averages from his prime/after he became an established batsman. Him letting go of the gloves mid-2006 coincided with him being 28 years old and entering his prime. Keeping does have some impact but he was only a keeper when he was in his early to mid 20s i.e. in his first 5 years till age 28, when he was still developing as a class batsman. He never really kept after mid-2006.

Letting go of the gloves, he worked harder on his batting and then became a better batsman in his 30s. In fact, we saw him get even better in his mid 30s, which was many years after letting go of the gloves. We saw him iron out his technical deficiencies along the way.

So to try to protray that if he hadn't been keeping, he would've been averaging very high in his first 5 years as well -- is very disingenuous. So you need to look at his overall figures, not just figures after developing/establishing as a batter. It takes time for players to find their feet.

 

[Coronis]

These are basically averages from his prime/after he became an established batsman. Him letting go of the gloves mid-2006 coincided with him being 28 years old and entering his prime. Keeping does have some impact but he was only a keeper when he was in his early to mid 20s i.e. in his first 5 years till age 28, when he was still developing as a class batsman. He never really kept after mid-2006.

Letting go of the gloves, he worked harder on his batting and then became a better batsman in his 30s. In fact, we saw him get even better in his mid 30s, which was many years after letting go of the gloves. We saw him iron out his technical deficiencies along the way.

So to try to protray that if he hadn't been keeping, he would've been averaging very high in his first 5 years as well -- is very disingenuous. So you need to look at his overall figures, not just figures after developing/establishing as a batter. It takes time for players to find their feet.

His batting also notably improved in ODIs after that point, despite retaining the gloves there.

153 innings 4746 @ 35.41 5 tons with 73.24 SR
227 innings 9488 @ 46.28 20 tons with 82.01 SR

Ofc, a 9 year period averaging 65 is nothing to sneeze at.

 

[Majestic]

Sanga.Keeping affected his run production in the initial half of his career. He is not as good as his stats but then he averages 57 so still better than Dravid.

 

[Thala_0710]

Sanga.Keeping affected his run production in the initial half of his career. He is not as good as his stats but then he averages 57 so still better than Dravid.

Saying he is better than Dravid just because he avgs 57 in his career or 66 without keeping is a very narrow view point imo. Where and against whom he made these runs, and what impact they had also needs to come into the reasoning

 

[capt_Luffy]

Saying he is better than Dravid just because he avgs 57 in his career or 66 without keeping is a very narrow view point imo. Where and against whom he made these runs, and what impact they had also needs to come into the reasoning

Tbf, while not keeping he scored against everyone everywhere in a stretch of a fine 85 Tests.

 

[Thala_0710]

Tbf, while not keeping he scored against everyone everywhere in a stretch of a fine 85 Tests.

While that is true, it is also not without context. As highlighted before Sanga played a very large and disproportionate amount of games against Bangladesh and Pakistan that boosts his average a lot. If you take away the innings he played as a keeper, it reduces the already relatively small sample size in SENAI countries. Even including his innings as a keeper, the only nations in which he has scored even 600+ runs are SL, BAN, PAK, UAE and ENG and in ENG his record is good but not that great. Dravid on the other hand has 1000+ runs in IND, AUS, ENG and WI while still batting for a good no of innings in the other nations. A very big disparity which is the root cause of the large difference in averages. Also, pretty big difference in sample sizes which can't be ignored

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Sanga made some high quality runs against Akhtar, Asif, and Ajmal. I wouldn’t remove his record against Pakistan.

 

[Coronis]

While that is true, it is also not without context. As highlighted before Sanga played a very large and disproportionate amount of games against Bangladesh and Pakistan that boosts his average a lot. If you take away the innings he played as a keeper, it reduces the already relatively small sample size in SENAI countries. Even including his innings as a keeper, the only nations in which he has scored even 600+ runs are SL, BAN, PAK, UAE and ENG and in ENG his record is good but not that great. Dravid on the other hand has 1000+ runs in IND, AUS, ENG and WI while still batting for a good no of innings in the other nations. A very big disparity which is the root cause of the large difference in averages. Also, pretty big difference in sample sizes which can't be ignored

You don’t choose who you play against. It wasn’t like he was skipping tours.

 

[Thala_0710]

Sanga made some high quality against Akhtar, Asif, and Ajmal. I wouldn’t remove his record against Pakistan.

Not removing his record in Pak, just wanted to show that bigger nations don't generally play Ban (and in IND's case) Pak that often. Dravid also did very well against Pak against a quality attack as you mentioned, even though they were some very flat pitches. But the main point was, your raw average is impacted by how much you pay against a particular nation as well. Dravid in all likelihood, if he played Pak and Aus as much as Sanga did, would be averaging 55+ as well

 

[Thala_0710]

You don’t choose who you play against. It wasn’t like he was skipping tours.

Ofc you don't, but his raw average is a consequence of playing in easier conditions/weaker attacks far more proportionately than most top batters. Btw, I have no issues in anyone rating Sanga higher than Dravid, but just saying it is so because he avgs 57 or 66 without keeping is what I have an issue with

 

[ma1978]

If you look at Sanga’s peak, you have to look at Dravid’s peak. If Dravid retired after 100+!tests averaging 59, he’d be considered in the same vein as Tendulkar and Lara

 

[Thala_0710]

If you look at Sanga’s peak, you have to look at Dravid’s peak. If Dravid retired after 100+!tests averaging 59, he’d be considered in the same vein as Tendulkar and Lara

True, till the end of 2006 Dravid avged 57.6 with an away avg of 62.8! All this while having played 100+ tests and having an impeccable record everywhere bar SA.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

If you look at Sanga’s peak, you have to look at Dravid’s peak. If Dravid retired after 100+!tests averaging 59, he’d be considered in the same vein as Tendulkar and Lara

After 104 tests, Dravid was averaging 58.75 and 65.28 away from home.

He was basically the Steve Smith of his era.

 

[centurymaker]

He made the error of playing till 39 years of age. If only he had retired at 35/36, he'd have been rated higher. Likewise for guys like Tendulkar and Ponting.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

He made the mistake of playing till 39 years of age. If only he had retired at 35/36, he'd have been rated higher. Likewise for guys like Tendulkar and Ponting.

I feel like Smith might retire a bit early to protect his average

 

[Coronis]

It always felt a little like Sanga retired early because of how good he stayed. But he was actually 37 going on 38.

 

[ma1978]

He made the error of playing till 39 years of age. If only he had retired at 35/36, he'd have been rated higher. Likewise for guys like Tendulkar and Ponting.

that’s just not correct. It’s not an error. He was still valuable for the team.

 

[ma1978]

I feel like Smith might retire a bit early to protect his average

Real people don’t think like that, only people on this board.