Ravichandran Ashwin vs Ian Botham

[CricAddict]

The fact that both Ashwin and Jadeja bat so well has mainly hindered Kuldeep getting a place in the team, since he himself is not a great bat. If he batted as well as them, India would have played all 3 of them consistently at home. India did that for some time when Axar was quite good with the ball.

 

[subshakerz]

The fact that both Ashwin and Jadeja bat so well has mainly hindered Kuldeep getting a place in the team, since he himself is not a great bat. If he batted as well as them, India would have played all 3 of them consistently at home. India did that for some time when Axar was quite good with the ball.

Kuldeep likely would be better than either of them in SENA

 

[CricAddict]

Kuldeep likely would be better than either of them in SENA

likely being the operative word. We will never know.

 

[subshakerz]

likely being the operative word. We will never know.

I mean we know Kuldeep already has a fifer in SENA and Ashwin does not (though I think he might on this tour).

 

[centurymaker]

5fer is not some ultimate thing. If you are a part of a strong attack and competing with good pacers for wickets, you are far less likely to take 5 wicket hauls in Aus. So it's about your contribution in getting the side bowled out for as low as possible. Getting a 5 wicket haul is almost irrelevant in this case.

3/50 or 4/70 where opposition is bowled for 200 is worth MORE than any 5 wicket haul where you have conceded more than 100 runs and allowed the opposition to get 300!

So stop obsessing over this milestone bs. It's about impact.

 

[subshakerz]

5fer is not some ultimate thing. If you are a part of a strong attack and competing with good pacers for wickets, you are far less likely to take 5 wicket hauls in Aus. So it's about your contribution in getting the side bowled out for as low as possible. Getting a 5 wicket haul is almost irrelevant in this case.

3/50 or 4/70 where opposition is bowled for 200 is worth MORE than any 5 wicket haul where you have conceded more than 100 runs and allowed the opposition to get 300!

So stop obsessing over this milestone bs. It's about impact.

It's not my obsession. Ashwin himself realises the importance of this milestone and stated as such. It shows you are capable of running through a side. It's not the end all be all but it's conspicuous he doesn't have one in SENA. And it's not like he is regularly taking 4fers either.

 

[Chin Music]

It's not my obsession. Ashwin himself realises the importance of this milestone and stated as such. It shows you are capable of running through a side. It's not the end all be all but it's conspicuous he doesn't have one in SENA. And it's not like he is regularly taking 4fers either.

There have also been a few tours when the quick bowlers have hardly been running through sides in SENA as well. I think his first tour here (England) was 2014?

 

[Xix2565]

Don't bother with Subshakerz, he seems to value the number 5 over anything that happens on field. There's nothing objective about him beyond displaying such behaviour for certain cricketers.

 

[subshakerz]

Don't bother with Subshakerz, he seems to value the number 5 over anything that happens on field. There's nothing objective about him beyond displaying such behaviour for certain cricketers.

It's just an indicator.

 

[subshakerz]

There have also been a few tours when the quick bowlers have hardly been running through sides in SENA as well. I think his first tour here (England) was 2014?

Plus several occasions in SENA when conditions were ripe for him to rip through a lineup and he choked.

 

[Chin Music]

Plus several occasions in SENA when conditions were ripe for him to rip through a lineup and he choked.

One occasion that springs to mind for me was 2018 at Southampton when Moeen Ali spun out India. It is a reasonable criticism for me that Ashwin didn't do enough outside of Asia in the earlier part of his career, in the same way that you can criticise Botham's last 5 years of his test career, when he simply shouldn't have been playing as a bowler and should have ensured he produced enough with the bat.

 

[Xix2565]

It's just an indicator.

Indicator of your nonsense, yes.

 

[subshakerz]

One occasion that springs to mind for me was 2018 at Southampton when Moeen Ali spun out India. It is a reasonable criticism for me that Ashwin didn't do enough outside of Asia in the earlier part of his career, in the same way that you can criticise Botham's last 5 years of his test career, when he simply shouldn't have been playing as a bowler and should have ensured he produced enough with the bat.

Yes. Another occasion was the 2nd test in 2018 against SA away when the 4th day pitch was primed for him and he had no impact.

 

[Arachnodouche]

lol anticipating Ashwin's whiteknights to hype up his two-wicket hauls over the winter while seamers bowl out the rest for 200. Positively Jurassic impact, bruh!

 

[Arachnodouche]

Yes. Another occasion was the 2nd test in 2018 against SA away when the 4th day pitch was primed for him and he had no impact.

He still has the tendency to start experimenting and pushing the ball through when things aren't working out. He did it in the first innings against BD last week too. Of all modern spinners, Warne and Murali are the only ones who continued hammering away on the same length with the same amount of air over after over. It shows sangfroid and long game vision - when backed by sound fundamentals i.e. - and that's why they're the greatest and everyone else open to dispute.

 

[OverratedSanity]

I don't really hype up any of Ashwin's performance except the 2021 Australia tour. I called him a useless fat bastard after that Southampton test where he sucked on a helpful pitch.Have always maintained there's not much between him and Lyon overall. They're both high 20s average spin bowlers on quality.

But it's the insistence in downplaying Ashwin's impact on that tour because he didn't take a 5fer that really exposes people to be hackfrauds. Really makes me wonder if people even watched that series or have simply just forgotten what happened. A truly shameless attempt at rewriting history. If literally any other spinner had had such an impact in winning a series in Australia it'd be hyped to the heavens but for this dude it's still "no 5fers sorry". I mean how dumb can you be.

 

[centurymaker]

Kuldeep against England earlier this year.. he didn't take a 5fer until the dead rubber 5th test but his 2fers in Rajkot and a 4fer in Ranchi were invaluable. He was crucial. And the pressure he applied from one end allowed India to dismiss England for lower totals. This is similar to Ashwin in Australia in 2020.

If Ashwin takes multiple 5fers this time around but allows Australia to post totals in excess of 350 or 400, then those 5fers 6fers won't mean ****.

 

[Arachnodouche]

Depends on the context really. Bhajji's 7-fers or whatever in that high scoring Chennai game of 01 were still invaluable. Cuts both ways though and I acknowledge the point. But fair or not, hundreds and five-fers are traditional milestones that unequivocally cement a player's legacy and it would be nice to see Ashwin play all five Tests in Oz this time and come away with a 25-wicket kitty.

 

[Coronis]

Depends on the context really. Bhajji's 7-fers or whatever in that high scoring Chennai game of 01 were still invaluable. Cuts both ways though and I acknowledge the point. But fair or not, hundreds and five-fers are traditional milestones that unequivocally cement a player's legacy and it would be nice to see Ashwin play all five Tests in Oz this time and come away with a 25-wicket kitty.

Hypothetically, this could occur with him having 0 5’fers.

Though that would be a first occurence for a spinner, its already happened 9 times for pacers.

Cummins 29 @ 19.62 (2019 Ashes)
W.Clark 28 @ 25.00 (77/78 AUS vs IND)
Garner 27 @ 16.14 (85/86 Wisden Trophy)
Marshall 27 @ 17.85 (85/86 Wisden Trophy)
Garner 26 @ 14.26 (1980 Wisden Trophy)
S.Clark 26 @ 17.03 (06/07 Ashes)
Lillee* 25 @ 23.84 (74/75 Ashes)
Garner 25 @ 27.52 (76/77 WI vs PAK)
Ntini 25 @ 25.08 (04/05 Basil D’Oliveira Trophy)

Lillee’s came in a 6 test series. Most wickets in a series with no 4’fers is

Marshall 21 @ 20.80 (90/91 Frank Worrell Trophy)

I’m sure if there was some WPM to 5’fers study Garner would come out well.

 

[subshakerz]

I don't really hype up any of Ashwin's performance except the 2021 Australia tour. I called him a useless fat bastard after that Southampton test where he sucked on a helpful pitch.Have always maintained there's not much between him and Lyon overall. They're both high 20s average spin bowlers on quality.

But it's the insistence in downplaying Ashwin's impact on that tour because he didn't take a 5fer that really exposes people to be hackfrauds. Really makes me wonder if people even watched that series or have simply just forgotten what happened. A truly shameless attempt at rewriting history. If literally any other spinner had had such an impact in winning a series in Australia it'd be hyped to the heavens but for this dude it's still "no 5fers sorry". I mean how dumb can you be.

On the contrary, you are hyping what was a good tour by Ashwin simply based on the importance of the victory and presenting it as if Ashwin won them the series solo as a bowler.