Rank these 5 Test openers in order ( Boycott, Greenidge, Hayden, Sehwag, G Smith )

[sayon basak]

Where would Gooch fall?

 

[Johan]

Where would Gooch fall?

Below Smith for me

 

[h_hurricane]

My recent observation is that WI cricketers are a bit over-rated on this forum. Hence happy to rate Greenidge as the last here. Other four can be in any order on a given day.

 

[kyear2]

My recent observation is that WI cricketers are a bit over-rated on this forum. Hence happy to rate Greenidge as the last here. Other four can be in any order on a given day.

Over rated with regards to?

No one has Sir Gordon as a top 5 opener, would wager not even a plurality as top 6.

Sobers? Marshall? They don't have a legitimate argument at GOAT all rounder and bowler? I literally in one vote said that Sobers had an argument for the GOAT and was immediately shouted down and @capt_Luffy wouldn't stop bringing it up.

IVA doesn't have a (pretty good) argument to be in an all time xi and to be in the argument
for best after Bradman?

Lara / Ambrose probably immediately below the pantheon of those 3, and arguably Lara with them?

Holding is often forgotten, Weekes and Worrell never rated that highly among the good folks here, Walcott and Garner could even be argued to be under rated at this point, but not an argument brought up by many.

Gibbs is normally (rightfully) lumped into the not Warne / Murali / O'Reilly discussion and (possibly less so) below the English sticky spinners.

So struggling to see where this comment has merit?

I know you mentioned that I pissed you off and as such you were ready to join the Viv is over rated bandwagon, but surely the Wisden top 5 player and arguably top ever player of pace bowling deserves a mention higher than 15th?

 

[capt_Luffy]

Over rated with regards to?

No one has Sir Gordon as a top 5 opener, would wager not even a plurality as top 6.

Sobers? Marshall? They don't have a legitimate argument at GOAT all rounder and bowler? I literally in one vote said that Sobers had an argument for the GOAT and was immediately shouted down and @capt_Luffy wouldn't stop bringing it up.

IVA doesn't have a (pretty good) argument to be in an all time xi and to be in the argument
for best after Bradman?

Lara / Ambrose probably immediately below the pantheon of those 3, and arguably Lara with them?

Holding is often forgotten, Weekes and Worrell never rated that highly among the good folks here, Walcott and Garner could even be argued to be under rated at this point, but not an argument brought up by many.

Gibbs is normally (rightfully) lumped into the not Warne / Murali / O'Reilly discussion and (possibly less so) below the English sticky spinners.

So struggling to see where this comment has merit?

I know you mentioned that I pissed you off and as such you were ready to join the Viv is over rated bandwagon, but surely the Wisden top 5 player and arguably top ever player of pace bowling deserves a mention higher than 15th?

The funny thing about Sobers' GoAT argument wasn't really the argument itself (which frankly most people don't buy); it's the fact that to establish that you pretty much walk backwards on every argument you presented value of all Rounders.

 

[Coronis]

Over rated with regards to?

No one has Sir Gordon as a top 5 opener, would wager not even a plurality as top 6.

Sobers? Marshall? They don't have a legitimate argument at GOAT all rounder and bowler? I literally in one vote said that Sobers had an argument for the GOAT and was immediately shouted down and @capt_Luffy wouldn't stop bringing it up.

IVA doesn't have a (pretty good) argument to be in an all time xi and to be in the argument
for best after Bradman?

Lara / Ambrose probably immediately below the pantheon of those 3, and arguably Lara with them?

Holding is often forgotten, Weekes and Worrell never rated that highly among the good folks here, Walcott and Garner could even be argued to be under rated at this point, but not an argument brought up by many.

Gibbs is normally (rightfully) lumped into the not Warne / Murali / O'Reilly discussion and (possibly less so) below the English sticky spinners.

So struggling to see where this comment has merit?

I know you mentioned that I pissed you off and as such you were ready to join the Viv is over rated bandwagon, but surely the Wisden top 5 player and arguably top ever player of pace bowling deserves a mention higher than 15th?

@h_hurricane couldn’t have predicted this post!

IVA doesn't have a (pretty good) argument to be in an all time xi and to be in the argument for best after Bradman?

No.

 

[h_hurricane]

@h_hurricane couldn’t have predicted this post!

It was the easiest prediction actually. I was expecting an essay similar to a chatgpt response as soon as I submitted a one liner. That is exactly what we got !

 

[kyear2]

Doesn't make your original post less based in reality.

And this discussion highlights a problem of late, people gathering in cliques and choosing to respond to posters and not the posts.

 

[kyear2]

The funny thing about Sobers' GoAT argument wasn't really the argument itself (which frankly most people don't buy); it's the fact that to establish that you pretty much walk backwards on every argument you presented value of all Rounders.

It really didn't, but the context was entirely ignored.

Guys like Botham and Miller, who isn't a top 10 performer in any discipline in my mind can't be elevated to top 10 status based on accumulation.

Imran imho can't jump from 8th best bowler to 3rd best player. But I would include him over guys like Ambrose or Steyn, who even though I rate them easily ahead as bowlers, not by enough. I wouldn't put him ahead of let's say Marshall, McGrath or Hadlee.

Sobers I rate along with Viv and Tendulkar as the absolute best after Bradman, right the great man. Then he was not only the most versatile bowler ever in terms of style, he also was from the perspective that hi did everything from open the bowling to being the stop bowler, bowling to defensive fields as either a seamer or spinner. Added to that he was rated up there with Hammond and Simpson as one of the greatest slips ever, added to he was also equally brilliant at leg slip and short leg. There's no argument that he's the best all round cricketer to have played the game.

Even with all of that, I said it was at best, arguable. I also said that I felt Marshall was also in that discussion. It was also months ago
There's also at least a couple people here who rate Imran the goat.

But also, and serous question. You know how much I rate slip fielding. If you rated it as highly, and had Sobers as a top 3 batsman, plus the bowling (which I do think is about as (slightly) overrated as Imran's batting), so that you have a blue chip batsman, you premier 2nd slip and 4th bowler, it wouldn't be an argument for the best ever?

 

[kyear2]

@h_hurricane couldn’t have predicted this post!




No.

And I couldn't have predicted this one?

If you're going to troll, at least don't fall into the same traps.

And my post was a legitimate response to his.

And for the record, I don't have any argument that's as ridiculous as that one that you hold on to.

 

[capt_Luffy]

It really didn't, but the context was entirely ignored.

Guys like Botham and Miller, who isn't a top 10 performer in any discipline in my mind can't be elevated to top 10 status based on accumulation.

Imran imho can't jump from 8th best bowler to 3rd best player. But I would include him over guys like Ambrose or Steyn, who even though I rate them easily ahead as bowlers, not by enough. I wouldn't put him ahead of let's say Marshall, McGrath or Hadlee.

Sobers I rate along with Viv and Tendulkar as the absolute best after Bradman, right the great man. Then he was not only the most versatile bowler ever in terms of style, he also was from the perspective that hi did everything from open the bowling to being the stop bowler, bowling to defensive fields as either a seamer or spinner. Added to that he was rated up there with Hammond and Simpson as one of the greatest slips ever, added to he was also equally brilliant at leg slip and short leg. There's no argument that he's the best all round cricketer to have played the game.

Even with all of that, I said it was at best, arguable. I also said that I felt Marshall was also in that discussion. It was also months ago
There's also at least a couple people here who rate Imran the goat.

But also, and serous question. You know how much I rate slip fielding. If you rated it as highly, and had Sobers as a top 3 batsman, plus the bowling (which I do think is about as (slightly) overrated as Imran's batting), so that you have a blue chip batsman, you premier 2nd slip and 4th bowler, it wouldn't be an argument for the best ever?

Simply put, you made a simple rule that you don't allow players to jump tiers over primary discipline, no matter how good they are in their secondary skills. You can rate Sobers the batsman as high as no 2 of all time and I won't raise any objections, but the difference between him and Don is easily Much greater than between him and someone like Simpson who don't make it into my Top 50. Simply put, the difference in primary skills is too damn high to justifiably make a case for Sobers to be even equal to Don. Your rule of jumping tiers just solidifies that.

 

[Coronis]

And I couldn't have predicted this one?

If you're going to troll, at least don't fall into the same traps.

And my post was a legitimate response to his.

And for the record, I don't have any argument that's as ridiculous as that one that you hold on to.

Ironic.

Anyway I wouldn’t personally say West Indies players are overrated here aside from mainly Viv and Greenidge.

Marshall and Sobers are overrated consistently by one particular vocal poster.

I think the others are all pretty accurate.

 

[kyear2]

Ironic.

Anyway I wouldn’t personally say West Indies players are overrated here aside from mainly Viv and Greenidge.

Marshall and Sobers are overrated consistently by one particular vocal poster.

I think the others are all pretty accurate.

The ones you underrate. With regards to Viv it's basically you and Pews against everyone else. But of course your arrogance wouldn't allow you to think you're possibly not right.

And Marshall and Sobers? How do I rate them higher than anyone else.

Sobers the top rated all rounder ever and best all round cricketer. A top tier ATG batsman and one of a handful who are legitimately seen to be in the category of best after Bradman.
A top tier ATG slip fielder and close catcher in general.
The most versatile bowler in the history of the game.
Unquestionably seen by all as one of the two (or three if we're including Grace) players in the upper Pantheon of the game.

Marshall rated as the greatest and best pacer and bowler ever. One of only three bowlers seen as being in that absolute top tier.

How are either of those two opinions different from the majority of the community.

 

[Coronis]

The ones you underrate. With regards to Viv it's basically you and Pews against everyone else. But of course your arrogance wouldn't allow you to think you're possibly not right.

And Marshall and Sobers? How do I rate them higher than anyone else.

Sobers the top rated all rounder ever and best all round cricketer. A top tier ATG batsman and one of a handful who are legitimately seen to be in the category of best after Bradman.
A top tier ATG slip fielder and close catcher in general.
The most versatile bowler in the history of the game.
Unquestionably seen by all as one of the two (or three if we're including Grace) players in the upper Pantheon of the game.

Marshall rated as the greatest and best pacer and bowler ever. One of only three bowlers seen as being in that absolute top tier.

How are either of those two opinions different from the majority of the community.

Viv is constantly put up as one of the best alongside Hobbs/Sachin/Sobers when his resume (SR aside) just doesn’t stack up. Greenidge’s record has clear holes… poor away record, average home record compared to his long term teammates…

While people (mostly) agree that Sobers is the greatest allrounder of all time, your insistence about Sobers fielding as if he was a next level god at it or his bowling as if he was a magician is how you overrate him, as you demonstrate in almost every post on the man, writing an essay on him.

Similarly, you’ve made similar essay length posts re: Marshall and how there is a significant gap between him and all other pacers. Whilst most of us have him at the top or near it there really isn’t much of a discernible difference between him and a few others.

As to me being arrogant? The question was about Windies players being overrated. If giving my opinion was unwarranted arrogance I apologise profusely.

 

[kyear2]

Simply put, you made a simple rule that you don't allow players to jump tiers over primary discipline, no matter how good they are in their secondary skills. You can rate Sobers the batsman as high as no 2 of all time and I won't raise any objections, but the difference between him and Don is easily Much greater than between him and someone like Simpson who don't make it into my Top 50. Simply put, the difference in primary skills is too damn high to justifiably make a case for Sobers to be even equal to Don. Your rule of jumping tiers just solidifies that.

Yes, I said that one can't jump multiple tiers based purely on a substandard secondary discipline. I never said however, regardless of how good one was in said secondary skill. If you're a great bowler on top of an ATG bat, of course it would impact your ratings.

If we're being honest, the essence of this argument revolves around two players. Why would I have Sobers no 2, with an argument for no 1, while Imran is around 9 or 10 and Kallis even lower.

As I said, primary skill is the primary factor. I rate Sobers considerably higher as a batsman than I do Imran as a bowler. I have Sobers 3rd and Imran 8th in primary disciplines.
In one of their secondary disciplines I rate Sobers bowling a little above Imran's batting, and that's primarily because Sobers filled more roles as a bowler to go along with the aptitude. In addition to his bowling he has an additional secondary skills where he was an ATG and one of the greatest ever at the most important (non keeper) fielding position.

If you want the comparison with Bradman, it's the same. As batsmen, Bradman is 1st. Sobers is 3rd (again my rankings, yours may vary) he's in that elite top tier of batsmen with Tendulkar, Richards and Hobbs. Then he bowls, not just does he bowl, he bowls seam and spin, and two types of spin. He also opened the bowling, had multiple match winning spells, or bowled back of the length or spin as a stop bowler in the middle overs. On top of that he was the most valuable fielder, in the most valuable position for what ever type of bowling he faced. When pace was on, he was at the invaluable 2nd slip position, when Gibbs was on, depending on the level of turn on the pitch he was at leg slip or short leg. At each of those positions he has an argument to be top 5 ever.

So not only did he had two secondary skills, one where he invaluable to his team and at test standard, with the other being just as crucial and at an ATG level.... he's also starting at a higher starting point on his primary skill. He's not starting at 8th, he's starting right behind the other guy.

And with all of that, all I'm saying it's at best, arguable. Note, at best.

And as I don't plan to have this discussion again let me be very clear.

Bradman
Tendulkar / Sobers / Richards / Hobbs (BAB)
Lara / Smith
Hutton

Gavaskar / Chappell / Ponting
Kallis etc etc


Marshall
McGrath
Hadlee

Steyn
Warne / Murali
Ambrose

Imran
Donald
Lillee
Akram / Garner etc.....

My ratings surely varies from yours, but that's a rough draft of it with tiers etc.

Sobers and Bradman (and again Grace if so inclined) stands head and shoulders on the pantheon above all cricketers in the history of the game, don't think it's a stretch to say one at least has an argument, an argument to be over the other.


And again, it was one single vote that you have harped on for months, in subsequent ones, including the ratings I post, Bradman is back at 1, and frankly never wasn't no. 1.

 

[Bolo.]

What number you put a player at in rankings is a pretty arbitrary way to measure quality. The 108th best bat is closer to the 2nd best than the 2nd best is to Bradman. It's the gap that counts, not the number of players in the gap.

 

[kyear2]

What number you put a player at in rankings is a pretty arbitrary way to measure quality. The 108th best bat is closer to the 2nd best than the 2nd best is to Bradman. It's the gap that counts, not the number of players in the gap.

Well that's where we have a different in opinion, and that's fine as well.

There is no way that the 108th ranked batsman is closer to a Tendulkar in quality, than Tendulkar is to Bradman. The lack of context in that statement is......

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Well that's where we have a different in opinion, and that's fine as well.

There is no way that the 108th ranked batsman is closer to a Tendulkar in quality, than Tendulkar is to Bradman. The lack of context in that statement is......

The 108th ranked batsman is probably someone like Graham Thorpe. Thorpe is definitely closer to Tendulkar than Tendulkar is to Bradman.

 

[capt_Luffy]

The 108th ranked batsman is probably someone like Michael Atherton. Atherton is definitely closer to Tendulkar than Tendulkar is to Bradman.

Strangely, it's Alec Stewart according to my list (whom I rate much higher than Atherton).... with Langer being 107th and Vengsarkar 108th. So long story short, Stewart closer to Tendulkar than Tendulkar to Bradman.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Strangely, it's Alec Stewart according to my list (whom I rate much higher than Atherton).... with Langer being 107th and Vengsarkar 108th. So long story short, Stewart closer to Tendulkar than Tendulkar to Bradman.

I changed it to Thorpe but yea not exactly sure who is around that 100-110 level since I haven’t done a list.