Ravichandran Ashwin vs Kapil Dev

[capt_Luffy]

I don't think the pace bowling gap is as big here, and again, you still lose out on batting with Kumble in just like the pace comparison.

No way is that conventional wisdom. Not with Gavaskar/Ashwin/Kumble around.

Is Ashwin not just as much of a unicorn? Or is this just a made up definition to exclude players that aren't preferred?

I don't think you will argue that Ashwin/Kumble is closer than Dev/Srinath or that the batting downgrade of having Kumble for Ashwin is much less than having Srinath for Dev.

 

[Thala_0710]

I don't think the pace bowling gap is as big here, and again, you still lose out on batting with Kumble in just like the pace comparison.

No way is that conventional wisdom. Not with Gavaskar/Ashwin/Kumble around.

Is Ashwin not just as much of a unicorn? Or is this just a made up definition to exclude players that aren't preferred?

The gap in pace bowling is definitely much wider compared to the spinners. The difference in batting skills of a Kapil/Zaheer is also much bigger than of an Ashwin/Kumble.

I don't think Ashwin and Kumble are generally considered for the greatest Indian cricketer of all time tag amongst Indian fans at the very least. The three up there are Sachin with Gavaskar and Kapil (with maybe even a Kohli thrown in due to his white ball exploits, although I completely disagree with it).

 

[h_hurricane]

How? One is a match winning phenomenon at home and a far superior bowler there.

I hope this isn't just because one is an all rounder and one isn't

I agree. Secondary skills do not matter unless we are talking about Garfield St Aubrun Sobers.

 

[Coronis]

I agree. Secondary skills do not matter unless we are talking about Garfield St Aubrun Sobers.

You mean The Right Excellent Sir Garfield St Aubrun Sobers, right?

 

[h_hurricane]

I am pretty sure every time Kyear2 meets Sobers, he sings the below to honour him.

 

[Xix2565]

The gap in pace bowling is definitely much wider compared to the spinners. The difference in batting skills of a Kapil/Zaheer is also much bigger than of an Ashwin/Kumble.

I don't think Ashwin and Kumble are generally considered for the greatest Indian cricketer of all time tag amongst Indian fans at the very least. The three up there are Sachin with Gavaskar and Kapil (with maybe even a Kohli thrown in due to his white ball exploits, although I completely disagree with it).

Sorry but no, the difference in batting for the spinners is huge.

Indian fans are hardly objective assessors of greatness. Having Kapil over Ashwin or Kumble requires belief in narratives and other non-cricketing cliches rather than it being some honest evaluation of their cricketing prowess.

 

[Thala_0710]

Sorry but no, the difference in batting for the spinners is huge.

Indian fans are hardly objective assessors of greatness. Having Kapil over Ashwin or Kumble requires belief in narratives and other non-cricketing cliches rather than it being some honest evaluation of their cricketing prowess.

The difference in avg between Ashwin and Kumble is 8, the same is 20 for Kapil and Zaheer. The gap would be even less for Ashwin and Kumble if you remove WI, against whom Ashwin performs exceptionally well, but fails to do so in SENA. So that statement is factually incorrect.
As for greatness I agree. If you go just by how good they were as test cricketers, Ash and Kumble would probably be above Kapil. But if you take into the captaincy, and especially the 83 World Cup win, Kapil's role in the same and what it did for Indian cricket, is what puts him above most in the eyes of Indian fans. Strictly as a pure test cricketer though, Ash and Kumble could be higher.

 

[Chin Music]

I am guessing that there are a fair few folk who at best only remember Kapil towards the end of his career? I can't say that I really remember his test match bowling peak, but he was clearly a very good bowler, especially when he often had no credible seam support, which perhaps mitigated his effectiveness. I mark down Ashwin a little bit because he has clearly benefitted from very friendly home tracks. He's improved a reasonable amount overseas when I remember a couple of English and Australian tours when he just looked very ordinary.

Kapil also has a distinct disadvantage in not having played for a particularly successful Indian team, and I guess that marks him down a bit. I guess I liked his batting a bit more, although it wasn't as successful as it might have been.

 

[Thala_0710]

Another point is Ashwin frequently gets dropped for Jadeja in away tours. There is no way Kapil ever gets dropped from an India xi

 

[capt_Luffy]

Kapil at 7 makes it easier to choose Ash over Jaddu in the India ATG XI for me.


Gavaskar
Mankad
Dravid
Sachin
Virat
Pant (wk)
Kapil
Ashwin
Kumble
Zaheer
Bumrah

Missing a chinaman..... Dump Sachin and add Kuldeep.

 

[Coronis]

Missing a chinaman..... Dump Sachin and add Kuldeep.

I thought it was an Indian side?

 

[capt_Luffy]

I thought it was an Indian side?

Hindi - Chini Bhai Bhai


(Just joking, **** China)

 

[Johan]

Gavaskar-Sehwag opening duo sounds too entertaining to pass on.

 

[kyear2]

I agree. Secondary skills do not matter unless we are talking about Garfield St Aubrun Sobers.

I do wish we could have a conversation without bringing up irrelevant ****.

I've never said that Sobers should make any team based on his bowling, Kallis is also good enough to make any team (outside of an AT 1st one) based on his primary skill as well.

If you're at least comparable or in touching distance of the other person in terms of primary skill, then the secondary can come into play... And a 5th bowler is a necessity for every team. But I don't think it's that close between Ashwin and Kapil as bolwers, do you?

I think Ashwin (primarily at home) is a considerably better bowler and match winner than Kapil, and it's not like he's a mug with the bat either.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I do wish we could have a conversation without bringing up irrelevant ****.

I've never said that Sobers should make any team based on his bowling, Kallis is also good enough to make any team (outside of an AT 1st one) based on his primary skill as well.

If you're at least comparable or in touching distance of the other person in terms of primary skill, then the secondary can come into play... And a 5th bowler is a necessity for every team. But I don't think it's that close between Ashwin and Kapil as bolwers, do you?

I think Ashwin (primarily at home) is a considerably better bowler and match winner than Kapil, and it's not like he's a mug with the bat either.

Fwiw, I believe without a shadow of doubt they are closer bowlers than Don and Sobers are as batsmen.

 

[Coronis]

I do wish we could have a conversation without bringing up irrelevant ****.

I've never said that Sobers should make any team based on his bowling, Kallis is also good enough to make any team (outside of an AT 1st one) based on his primary skill as well.

If you're at least comparable or in touching distance of the other person in terms of primary skill, then the secondary can come into play... And a 5th bowler is a necessity for every team. But I don't think it's that close between Ashwin and Kapil as bolwers, do you?

I think Ashwin (primarily at home) is a considerably better bowler and match winner than Kapil, and it's not like he's a mug with the bat either.

Necessity? Eh

 

[Shri]

kapil is our 3rd best test fast bowler ever

ash the best spinner

the comparison doesn't matter because they will both be in india's all time xi

 

[Shri]

Gavaskar
Sehwag
Dravid
Tendulkar
Kohli
Pant
Jadeja
Dev
Ashwin
Shami
Bumrah

 

[h_hurricane]

I do wish we could have a conversation without bringing up irrelevant ****.

I've never said that Sobers should make any team based on his bowling, Kallis is also good enough to make any team (outside of an AT 1st one) based on his primary skill as well.

If you're at least comparable or in touching distance of the other person in terms of primary skill, then the secondary can come into play... And a 5th bowler is a necessity for every team. But I don't think it's that close between Ashwin and Kapil as bolwers, do you?

I think Ashwin (primarily at home) is a considerably better bowler and match winner than Kapil, and it's not like he's a mug with the bat either.

They are close as bowlers. I think Ashwin is very marginally the better bowler, but there is more condition dependability about his bowling than Kapil. Kapil held the bowling together for well over a decade with no support. Even the spin bowlers of his time were pretty ****. After Bedi, Chandra and Pras retired at the beginning of Kapil's career, who exactly India had until Kumble came along ?

It isn't close between as batsmen which is why many are voting him ahead of Ashwin. Kapil was capable of ATG knocks as a batsman, Ashwin is not (though I rate his lower order contributions)

Since Marshall was your hero, I am pretty sure you followed Kapil's career closely as well. He was immense against WI and had to do the donkey job of bowling, bowling and bowling for ever, without the luxury of not getting picked when it doesn't suit his style of bowling like Ashwin. There is no other example of a pace bowling all rounder in history who played as much as 131 tests, which is why his career stats need to be taken with context.

 

[kyear2]

Fwiw, I believe without a shadow of doubt they are closer bowlers than Don and Sobers are as batsmen.

Again disingenuous and intelctually dishonest.

I've explained this no less than 5 times already and you ignore to being up an explained, corrected and moot point.

I've explained that from every perspective but you continue to focus on one vote. So yeah, ridiculous.