Is Bumrah the best cricketer India has ever produced?

[h_hurricane]

For me, the 4 greatest Indian cricketers in order are Tendulkar, Gavaskar, Kapil and Dravid. Ashwin is certainly in discussion for #5, but so are Kohli and Jadeja.
Bumrah, if and when he has a proper career would be having a good case for top 3. Hopefully Pant and Jaiswal have great careers too.

 

[Coronis]

Nope, completely the opposite. Ashwin gets way less of it compared to those guys I mentioned (and rightly so). I myself **** on the likes of Philander, Warner etc. waaaay more than I've ever done to Ashwin. And I used to for Anderson before he won me over the last few years. You're seeing through a massivelyt distorted lens if you really think Ashwin is getting harsher treatment in this regard.

I don't see how you could possibly have missed the context of why I mentioned him

Get out of my country.

 

[OverratedSanity]

I'll say it again, the fact that bumrah is our only ATG pace bowler (on quality not career) means I wouldn't even disagree that hard even if someone made a case for him to be ranked first. So even though I think Ashwin is a greater cricketer career wise, I think it's easier to make a case bumrah should be top 3 than it is for Ashwin.

 

[Arachnodouche]

Ashwin is defintely India's greatest ever cricketer at home...BUT his miserable performances elsewhere put a dent big enough in his record to drag him down to merely very good overall. Great on the streets, so-so between the sheets, you feelin' me homz?

 

[Arachnodouche]

I think he’s an ATG test bowler and outside (just) the Indian top 5 ATG cricketers. Both these things are possible.

How though? Being an ATG bowler already puts you in rarefied company and especially so if you're Indian considering we have precisely...zero ATG bowlers (assuming Kumble's only ATVG)? If he's a legit ATG, you should have no hesitation in pegging him (not literally but ok if you wanna) as India's third greatest ever after Tendulkar and Gavaskar...or heck even joint greatest with both.

 

[Xix2565]

Nope, completely the opposite. Ashwin gets way less of it compared to those guys I mentioned (and rightly so). I myself **** on the likes of Philander, Warner etc. waaaay more than I've ever done to Ashwin. And I used to for Anderson before he won me over the last few years. You're seeing through a massivelyt distorted lens if you really think Ashwin is getting harsher treatment in this regard.

I don't see how you could possibly have missed the context of why I mentioned him

I honestly don't think so given the stubborn opposition seen here and elsewhere. Though you aren't wrong in that there are a lot more home/specific bowling type bullies that get less leeway compared to other players. I still think the framing you used earlier is still incorrect given that Indian batters and general runscoring hasn't suddenly dropped down to miserable levels for the duration of his career, only a few Tests here and there.

I understood the context just fine, but I also pointed out that it's not like people are also going to say Herath is like the 10th best SL of all time or something equally ridiculous.

 

[ma1978]

How though? Being an ATG bowler already puts you in rarefied company and especially so if you're Indian considering we have precisely...zero ATG bowlers (assuming Kumble's only ATVG)? If he's a legit ATG, you should have no hesitation in pegging him (not literally but ok if you wanna) as India's third greatest ever after Tendulkar and Gavaskar...or heck even joint greatest with both.

Because India can have 6 ATG cricketers

 

[Arachnodouche]

Ah Indian ATGs, not global. Just looked at thread title again, been barking up the wrong tree then. Carry on.

 

[Xix2565]

What would it take for either of Bumrah or Ashwin to go past Tendulkar, assuming playing forever isn't an option? Your best case scenarios?

 

[TheJediBrah]

What would it take for either of Bumrah or Ashwin to go past Tendulkar, assuming playing forever isn't an option? Your best case scenarios?

ashwin can't IMO, unless he steps up and gets even better somehow. Bumrah probably needs 500+ wickets at the same level he is now, at least. How else could he match Sachin with the most runs ever by such a distance

 

[honestbharani]

Ashwin is easily an ATG test player and an ATG test bowler globally. How is such a simple thing even up for debate?

 

[ma1978]

What would it take for either of Bumrah or Ashwin to go past Tendulkar, assuming playing forever isn't an option? Your best case scenarios?

nothing at this stage in their careers, both too old

 

[ma1978]

I don’t think people fully appreciate the magnitude of Tendulkars achievements when they talk about Ash or Bumrah in the same sentence. There are ATGs and there is one of the five to seven greatest players in the history of the game.

Leaving aside Tendulkar, I think people don’t fully appreciate the magnitude of Dravid’s accomplishments. 13,000 test runs, 50 average home and away, match winning centuries in Pakistan, Australia and England. It’s not taking anything away from Ashwin saying he’s not Dravid level

 

[shortpitched713]

This thread didn't disappoint.

 

[Prince EWS]

@Prince EWS
@Prince EWS
@Prince EWS

Ashwin and Steve Smith are quite similar in many ways.

 

[h_hurricane]

No thread in CW ever disappoints. There are enough entertainers here.

 

[shortpitched713]

Ashwin and Steve Smith are quite similar in many ways.

Steve Smith has burned me from talking about current day players too much, in terms of their placement among the greats.

I really don't want to get into the match by match cycle of he's really great one day and then not the next, which gets debated here all the time.

That's why I haven't chimed in on either Ashwin or Bumrah's place, even though I think both of their performances have been excellent.

Bumrah in particular, I think is vulnerable to the late career overuse and decline, which already was seen in the case of Kapil as an Indian fast bowler who is simply asked to do too much.

 

[King Kane]

My vote went to Kapil Dev.

One of the 80s rock star all rounders along with Ian Botham, Imran Khan and Richard Hadlee, four of the best all rounders of all time.

 

[Coronis]

Steve Smith has burned me from talking about current day players too much, in terms of their placement among the greats.

I really don't want to get into the match by match cycle of he's really great one day and then not the next, which gets debated here all the time.

That's why I haven't chimed in on either Ashwin or Bumrah's place, even though I think both of their performances have been excellent.

Bumrah in particular, I think is vulnerable to the late career overuse and decline, which already was seen in the case of Kapil as an Indian fast bowler who is simply asked to do too much.

This is literally the problem with rating current players. If Kohli scores a ton the next few weeks people will be talking about how he’s easily the second greatest of the Fab Four and ignoring the last few years of his career. Recency bias goes crazy discussing current players (aside from Anderson and Broad but they were already at 150+ tests)

 

[Xix2565]

I don’t think people fully appreciate the magnitude of Tendulkars achievements when they talk about Ash or Bumrah in the same sentence. There are ATGs and there is one of the five to seven greatest players in the history of the game.

Leaving aside Tendulkar, I think people don’t fully appreciate the magnitude of Dravid’s accomplishments. 13,000 test runs, 50 average home and away, match winning centuries in Pakistan, Australia and England. It’s not taking anything away from Ashwin saying he’s not Dravid level

I mean it does when you basically ignore bowlers and their influence over the game. Or decide to ignore context here and there just to pretend that one great cricketer isn't in the same class as another.

I have a lot of love for Dravid, but he is in no way on a separate tier.